3rd Engine in 6000 miles

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:25 am

Tuesday i was out on the Rattler at about 35mph and it shut down... just as it did the last two times the engine went... i got off the bike kicked the kick starter and no compression... pushed the bike about a mile to uptown conconrd and parked it at the courthouse,,, walked the rest of the 2miles home... pissed... got my van and went and picked up the bike... got it home and pulled the plug out look fine... checked the compression it was close to 90psi... not good...

dropped the engine and pulled the head off and bingo,,, ring welded to the piston... this is the 3rd time this has happend with this rattler... loaded up the rattler in my van and headed to charlotte first thing this morning...

with lots of luck he had a "Polished" cylinder,,, a "B" pistion,,, head gasket...

two reasons i think this failed,,, first and far most a leak at the head from the pipe... even though i had drilled and tapped it still did not for whatever reason not seat right... 2nd "oil" i used Royal Purple from the last engine replacement from Genuine at the 1000 mile mark,,, bike has 6333 on it now... i seen first hand what happend and it is was caused from the oil,,, the piston and cylinder was caked with carbon from the oil damn nere burned into the metal... in the end ill not use Royal Purple anymore...

im using Ipone now thats what my tech recomended that i use he wins...

i just went on and outright bought the parts and put them in myself rather than taking it to the closes Genuine dealer... why??? the new tech they hired well he's a layed off hardly davison tech that has to come to my tech to get advise on how to fix the vespas and genuine's that they sale and sevice... yet my tech had a Stella and a Buddy he was servicing today...

im very unhappy about this piston ring welding for the 3rd time... at first i thought it might be the oil pump but its pumping and using oil... well another runin to do... told my tech to order another cylinder-kit for this one well not last long with past exprience...

im pushing the 5 grand mark for the Genuine Rattler "Scooter" to run and give me dependable service,,, which it has not,,, even at the amount of money iv spent on modifing it to run and stay running...not happy at all about that... if i had it to do all over again and know what i know now about the Genuine Rattler,,, i would not even have looked at the Rattler when i went to buy a new scooter last year... the bike has been unrunable for 4 of the 11 months iv owned it,,, and would have been longer down time if i did not take on the job of fixing it rather than leave it at a dealer that has unsutable tech's to repair...

i also bought the little tiny windshild for the rattler... my daughter thinks its cute... i just wanted some bling for my scoot...

now to go out and runin this 3rd cylinder...

Checklist for runin... cell phone... a list of 4 people that can come get me at anytime day or night when it shuts down again... walking shoes (just in case i can not get ahold of the list of 4 people),,, dont go more than 5 miles from home... AAA card just in case i ride over the 5 mile mark cuz i just want to ride my moto-cycle,,, full tank of gas in my van... tiedowns ready,,, wheel chock mounted in van,,, tools preped for next cylinder replacement... new cylinder kit on the way...

Genuine i know u read my post and others here as well as you should... Genuine as a Company is great i give you a 10 on that part... as far as the Rattler 110,,, even though i own one i wish i did not...

iv got 5 grand in a 2 grand scooter,,, that if i was to try and sale today would not get 2 grand for it... its so undependable that ill not go out of the small city of Concord NC with it... if i could find someone to dish me over $2000 for this Rattler i would take it in a heartbeat but as us scooter owners know im not going to get that for a used Rattler even with the highend parts iv put into it to get it to run as it should,,,

my tech said i should take my Rattler and trade it in on a Stella,,, i laughed and said you think i want another Genuine after the trouble iv had with this one??? he said they were more dependable... i ask yea but less dependable than what??? he gave no reply...

Very Very undependable... to me the money is not the big problem here,,, its having a bike that is dependable,,, which the 09 Genuine Rattler Buckten is not.... TGB with 33,000 miles still dependable,,, why is this???

i do ride the rattler hard but not to the point of abuse... maybe 5Kmiles is a normal piston life for this thing....

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:00 pm

wow that sucks Maj. but I can't help but wonder if we as rattler owners are expecting too much from this machine. You stated your self you have ridden it hard, I ride mine hard and yes the engine did blow at bout 5k. Have I had any problems since, no. Have I made drastic mods to my scooter, no. If you run her right she will last like she's supposed to.
I'm not a tech, and I dn't claim to be, but at some point we have to take ownership of the things we do to our scoots.
You drill out the aircleaner and don't change the jets or put the wrong one in-it's gonna fail, if you "think" you seated the exhaust right and didn't it's gonna fail, if you run it at 55 miles an hour for more than ten miles at a time it's gonna fail.
Ultimately what I say is not gonna change your thoughts on the machine, cause your the one with all the problems, not me, it's easy for me to say.
If it fails on me again, I'll let a qualified genuine mech/tech fix it cause that's why it's got a warranty, perhaps after my warranty runs out, I'll be singing a different tune, but 1 engine in 7000k miles for me in under a year, is not enough to agree that this machine is all at fault here.

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:39 pm

a qualified genuine mech/tech??? theres not one within hundreds of miles that works for genuine... my tech was the only qualified genuine tech within hundreds of miles till he opened his own shop,,, (and its doing very well in just 3 months)...

i did do a hundred miles today and took out the plug it was at the No. 14 on this page...

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark ... talog.html

with the old cylinder it was always at the No 7...

my tech says it was the oil plus head gasket,,, i say oil along with the leak at the pipe that i was so afraid of bustin off the bolt again i must not have gotten it tight enough,,, also its posable that the back bolt on the pipe had been broken off for sometime... when we took the piston out the tech did take note that the head gasket was burnt and a small part was riding inside the cylinder itself,,, he said thats not good...

the replacement cylinder is not all that much and not hard to swap out... maybe the hard riding i do is too hard... if thats the case maybe i should order two cylinder kits,,, cuz im not going to drive it like its a moped...

oh well it is still as far as i know the largest 2t scooter sold in the USA... until someone makes a larger 2t keep sending me the cylinder kits...

also this cylinder port exhaust has been polished out,,, it looks nothing like the stock one that was removed... my tech had polished it out for his rattler but seen my need... (for speed

)

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:16 am

Major, put your test pilot experience to good use, run Bel-Ray Si-7 in the oil tank AND with 1oz premix in the fuel, properly jetted for the pre-mix, & report back in another 5000 mi. with your results

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:28 am

with the plug looking as it did (No 7 http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark ... talog.html ) i figured it was getting enough oil,,, sad thing is i just opened a new GAL. of oil to fill up the tank just befor the fry,,, i emailed royal purple ,,, now im stuck with almost a full gal. of oil i'll not use...

tech said it would be best to just shut down the pump and premix... your view???

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:04 am

I would siphon or drain the RP, use the Si-7 in the tank with the pump, AND premix a bit in the gas tank.

Check the plug frequently & carefully as the new bore wears in.

What plug are you running?

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:26 am

i drained out the RP before we even started the engine... i know he put Ipone in the tank as well as a few oz. in the tank... weather permit ill ride into charlotte today and have him look things over but its running great as of yesterdays last ride... i feel im running a little on the rich side from the way its acting but i want it rich at this time (you would too)... im really thinking about just bypassing the pump and premix...

but you think one oz. is enough/not too much if i keep the oil pump connected,,, i mean i dont want to overkill on the oil... but im sure not wanting to rely on the oil pump after this last fry... it could be the oil pump having problems,,, i dont want to buy another piston in order to test the oil pump for possable intermet problems it might have or cause...

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:58 pm

I don't trust any oil that has a "fragrance".

What plug are you running?

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:46 pm

i did tell him it "Stunk" he said it was not avalible with out,,, im using NGK BPR6HS the replacement that came with the engine that Genuine sent back in March 09,,, i know specks say BPR7HS but when i use it theres a noticable proformance loss... Iv used Klotz KL300 in my tgb that has about 24K on a MRP rebuilt...

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:59 pm

I know you have little to no respect for my input in these things, Maj, but a BPR6 plug is way too hot for this engine. Regardless of what Genuine put in it. Once mine broke in again, I removed the BPR7HS that was in it and replaced it with a BR8HS. I went one step cooler and went with a non-projector plug. I was told by a tech whom I trust to used a colder plug with any modifications (modded airbox and prima pipe on mine), synthetic oil (I use Motul 510), premium,quality gas and he recommended heavier roller weights to prevent over-revving and to keep the engine at a lower rpm at full throttle (I now use 9.5 gram). He also recommended NOT running at full throttle for miles on end.

I now have about 1800 miles on this new piston and cylinder with no problems,

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:45 pm

I agree with Keys. The 6 is too hot for a performance modded motor, the combustion temps were too high, & from my perspective at the very least the plug choice contributed to the problem. He did warn you.

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:44 am

i agree with some things and disagree with some and willing to try some things... my roller weights are 12gr. malossi variator,,, Dr. Pulley HIT clutch... and i use 100 octane fuel (please dont get into the octane debate ill use 100 octane no matter what advice you throw on this forum)... i have another cylinder kit on the way to get the port polished and ready for this piston to fry... i well try a br7 for you guys and see what i think... ill even pick up a couple of br8's... maybe the br6 was the only plug that Genuine tech in illinoise had that day...

i well keep using Ipone my tech said hes used the Bel-Ray Si-7 when he was a tech at a vespa dealer and they switched to Ipone,,, he would rather me use the Ipone... he did not have anything bad to say about the Bel-Ray,,, i also asked him would using Caster oil be better,,, he said he would rather me us the Ipone... i told him hell when this piston frys your going to be the one that helps me with it not the guys online... (not cutting ya'll down by no means just hes the one thats going to help get the parts and such.... i will after using up the tank of oil switch to premixing my fuel,,, i just dont trust that oil pump,,,

even with the pump he recomended that i add oil to the fuel until i use up the oil in the tank....

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:07 pm

Sure, listen to your tech; he has an interesting track record so far...

jmkjr72 · Post by **jmkjr72** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:36 pm

ipone will be just fine
you need to run premium with bbks as they run a higher compression
plug wise cast iron bbks (except polini they run a diffrent plug all together) need br8hs al kits need br9hs

a 6 plug is even too hot for a stock bore no wonder it seized up on you take that tech and throw his ass off a cliff he should know better then that

by adding oil to the gas you are running leaner (less fuel on an ac engine your fuel cools your engine also) you have to up jet to premix

B02S4 · Post by **B02S4** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:19 pm

He has a stock bore motor.

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

jmkjr72 wrote:ipone will be just fine
you need to run premium with bbks as they run a higher compression
plug wise cast iron bbks (except polini they run a diffrent plug all together) need br8hs al kits need br9hs

a 6 plug is even too hot for a stock bore no wonder it seized up on you take that tech and throw his ass off a cliff he should know better then that

by adding oil to the gas you are running leaner (less fuel on an ac engine your fuel cools your engine also) you have to up jet to premix

waiting on an airfilter for another rejetting job,,, as is now i have a 1.1

masterofillusion · Post by **masterofillusion** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:33 am

Hope I get more miles out of my rattler. I just got a scarabeo 500ie so the rattler will be my toy. Or I may sell it. I have 3 honda elites if you want a dependable scoot.

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:42 am

I'm still on my first engine with much more than 6k.

Major Redneck · Post by **Major Redneck** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:36 pm

today i tested 4 plugs in a 25 mile run,,, in order bpr7hs,,, bpr8hs,,, bpr9hs,,, bpr6hs... my pick is the bpr8hs... mid to high rpm,,, better constent pickup and steady rpm,,, better hill climb,,, it seam to be a little rough on the lowend idle and rpm,,, but who likes going that slow,,,

see i am open to input