Seized my Blur's engine!

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babblefish
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Seized my Blur's engine!

Post by babblefish »

Like the title says, I just seized the engine in my '06 Blur. I checked the oil level a few days prior and it was good. It now shows almost empty! There are no visible signs of oil leaks - and nothing on the garage floor. There is no smoke coming from the exhaust. I wonder where the oil went?!
Guess it's time to rebuild the engine.

Does anyone know of a good place to buy either a stock cylinder/piston assy. or a big bore kit that doesn't require machine work on the crankcase? I couldn't find anything for the Blur on Scooterworks website. I found a couple of places on the internet that say they have cylinder kits for G-Max 150, but the pictures of the cylinder is all wrong for PGO engines (missing exhaust emissions hole). Help!!! :(
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Post by KCScooterDude »

Mileage?
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Post by charlie55 »

Sorry to hear about this. You might want to try picking through the diagrams on this site:

http://www.scooterloungeonline.com/genuineblurparts

Didn't see any kits, but it looks as if they might stock all of the piece parts.

Good luck.
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Post by babblefish »

KCScooterDude wrote:Mileage?
About 13K Blur miles.
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Post by babblefish »

charlie55 wrote:Sorry to hear about this. You might want to try picking through the diagrams on this site:

http://www.scooterloungeonline.com/genuineblurparts

Didn't see any kits, but it looks as if they might stock all of the piece parts.

Good luck.
Thanks for the link. That's a pretty good website for Blur spares. :)
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Post by BlueMark »

Hey, we know you can shoehorn a 220i engine into the Blur, I wonder what other motors can made to work?

For instance, there have to be a million Ninja 250R engines out there ... you'd lose the pet carrier, and probably need a bigger CVT ... and asbestos riding shorts. LOL
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Post by Lostmycage »

Scooterworks or ebay. If it helps, all the kits that I was able to find blocked off the emissions hole as well. I'd really want to open it all the way up and see if I could track down where the oil went. While I was down there, I'd probably put a 60mm crank in... you know, just cause. :twisted:
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Post by gearhead »

this ceramic kit should work for the blur. it has the 15mm wrist pin and there is no milling involved to make it fit

http://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Cylinde ... P5898.aspx
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Post by babblefish »

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm going to wait until I can get the engine apart and make some measurements like cylinder height, stud spacing, etc. before actually buying parts. I want to get my scoot running again, but don't really want to put too much money into it because I'm still waiting for the 220i to become available in CA. That being said, a hotter cam, port work and bigger bore couldn't hurt... :D
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Post by babblefish »

Just an update on my engine saga:

Engine still had oil in the crankcase. It was not as empty as I first thought. No metal particles were found in the oil screen when I drained the oil.

Removed engine from frame. For others that may do the same some day, don't forget to disconnect the oil cooler lines from the bottom of the crankcase before trying to drop the engine.

Pulled the head and cylinder assy. Piston skirt shows a lot of scoring. It is a very tiny piston. Kinda pitiful, really.

After pulling the cylinder off, the crankshaft turns freely, but the connecting rod is locked-up on the crank. Can't move it at all. Everything around the crankshaft is heavily coated with oil, as it should be. No large metal particles can be seen. What the heck is up with this?!

Haven't been able to split the crankcase yet because I can't figure out how to remove the rightside swingarm/wheel support. Removed axle nut and the two bolts holding the arm to the crankcase, but arm won't pull off. A puzzle, this...
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Post by babblefish »

I was just looking at the 2mm+ stroker crankshaft (1100-1015) on Scooterworks website. They say it fits Buddy and Blur, but I thought the Buddy's piston wristpin was 13mm diameter. Anyone know what size wristpin the Scooterworks crank uses? Also, if the stroke is increased 2mm, does the cylinder have to be shimmed? If so, would it be a 1mm shim?
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Post by Lostmycage »

The Blur's wrist pin is 15mm and so is the Buddy 150's. The 125 Buddy uses the 13mm wrist pin, but it's already got the 60mm crank in it. I think you do need to shim the cylinder with the stroker crank and the kits should come with a 1mm shim or two, but that's going off memory which is foggy at best.

Best bet is to call or email SW and find out what the kit comes with and let you know which kit is compatible. There's been a few factual anomalies on their website before so it's a good idea to call or email them.

Good luck!
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Post by babblefish »

Called Scooterworks and asked about the crank. It does use a 15mm wristpin. They do recommend using a 1mm aluminum shim gasket under the cylinder. No, the crank does not come with such a shim. No, they don't carry such a part. And no, they don't know where to get one. Nice.
They suggested trying it with just the stock cylinder gasket, but the increased compression may be too high for the starter motor to turn over. They also suggested using high octane race gas. Unfortunately, none of this is workable for a street use vehicle. An OEM crankshaft is only $35 cheaper so I'd really like to use the stroker if I can. Guess I'll look around these parts to see if there's a machine shop that can make a 1mm aluminum gasket.

BTW: Found this on EBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Performa ... ccessories) but don't know if I can trust the quality since it's so inexpensive. Contacted the seller and was told it will fit a PGO G-Max 150. Any thoughts?
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Post by Lostmycage »

I could have sworn that the NCY cylinder kits (or the Prima kits anyway) came with an extra 1mm metal shim in them.

You might have to find a more universal shim (ie, no emission port) and either do away with that or open the shim so as not to block it. A lot of the kits do away with the port anyway, so finding a shim that has it might be a moot point.

I've heard of people using an extra gasket to shim a cylinder after a crank upgrade, but I'd rather find a shim.
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Post by gearhead »

yeah, the prima 161 kit for the buddy comes with a 3 parts base gasket. 2 paper, and 1 metal especially if you are switching to the 58.5 big valve head. maybe you can use one from that kit? When i ordered mine, SW didn't send it with the kit so they had to send me an extra one.
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Post by babblefish »

So, does anyone know what it takes to remove the right side swingarm? Still haven't figured it out yet and it's the only thing keeping me from continuing my engine teardown. I've removed the big nut on the axle, the two bolts holding it to the crankcase and the inside circlip in the wheel. Maybe a Sawzall would help...

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Post by gearhead »

rubber mallet*
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Post by babblefish »

gearhead wrote:rubber mallet*
Nope, doesn't work - and besides, I don't really want to be pounding on the axle even with the nut threaded on to protect the threads; could end up impacting the races of the wheel bearing. I'm wondering if a special puller is required...
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Post by Lostmycage »

Can you take a picture of it from the front facing back?

There's no hidden clips in there holding the bearing in, is there?


While you've got it apart that far, you could even upgrade the stator if you wanted to, heh.
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Post by gearhead »

ive removed mine, and used a rubber mallet. that thing is on there tight. You aren't going to mess up the races on the bearing
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Post by babblefish »

gearhead wrote:ive removed mine, and used a rubber mallet. that thing is on there tight. You aren't going to mess up the races on the bearing
OK, thanks, I'll give it a try.
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Post by babblefish »

OK, sprayed some WD40 on my shaft (get your minds out of the gutter!), waited a few minutes then pounded the snot out of it - it finally came off! Phew!

(...that sure sounded like porn...)

Pulled the flywheel side cover off and found no visible metal particles inside the crankcase - that's good news. The tricky part is getting the starter clutch off the crankshaft. It's held on with a notched (4 notches) nut. I surfed the net and found what I think is the right tool to remove it. Now I have to wait till it gets here...

Image

I also found a stroker crank on EBay with a +4.2mm stroke for about the same price as the Scooterworks +2mm crank. They didn't mention anything about a 2.1mm spacer to shim the cylinder, but I'm sure it is required. Either that or a custom piston with it's wrist pin relocated 2.1mm higher toward the dome. Think I'll ask the seller...
Last edited by babblefish on Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by babblefish »

Lostmycage wrote:<Snip> While you've got it apart that far, you could even upgrade the stator if you wanted to, heh.
I thought about that. I've seen 11-pole (vs 8-pole) stators on EBay, but then the flywheel would have to be changed for an 11 magnet version. I wonder if this would give a higher amperage output?
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Post by Lostmycage »

babblefish wrote:
Lostmycage wrote:<Snip> While you've got it apart that far, you could even upgrade the stator if you wanted to, heh.
I thought about that. I've seen 11-pole (vs 8-pole) stators on EBay, but then the flywheel would have to be changed for an 11 magnet version. I wonder if this would give a higher amperage output?
That's the way I understand it - more poles, more electrical power. There's the added rotatioal mass which can rob you of a little bit of power, but you're going to take care of that with other means, hehe. The 11 pole might be overkill. I've read that some people have had good results on generic GY6's by simply rewrapping (carefully) the stock stators to ink out more power without having to change flywheels.

Once you get the specs you need for your piston, turn the speakers on your computer down and go here. They've got a lot of different parts for small displacement scoots at REALLY good prices (including shipping) and the guy who runs it (Ranuka- the name backwards) it super friendly and helpful.

And that tool looks striking familiar - like a 4 wheel drive hub socket available at most auto parts stores? Just in case you haven't ordered the tool yet.
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Post by babblefish »

Lostmycage wrote: That's the way I understand it - more poles, more electrical power. There's the added rotatioal mass which can rob you of a little bit of power, but you're going to take care of that with other means, hehe. The 11 pole might be overkill. I've read that some people have had good results on generic GY6's by simply rewrapping (carefully) the stock stators to ink out more power without having to change flywheels.

I wouldn't mind rewinding the stator if I knew what wind to use and the size of the magnet wire. I even thought about modifiying the existing flywheel by removing the stock magnets and replacing them with Neodymium.

Once you get the specs you need for your piston, turn the speakers on your computer down and go here. They've got a lot of different parts for small displacement scoots at REALLY good prices (including shipping) and the guy who runs it (Ranuka- the name backwards) it super friendly and helpful.

Interesting site. They show a lot of stuff, but not much information. I'm being very selective with the parts I buy in that I want the piston/cylinder and crankshaft made in Taiwan. I tend to trust those a little more than those from China. I know that China can and does make high quality products, but it's too hit-and-miss unless one has an inside connection as to what is good and what is not. Even though I plan to sell the Blur as soon as the 220i becomes available in CA, I want to make sure the next owner doesn't have any problems with it in the future.

And that tool looks striking familiar - like a 4 wheel drive hub socket available at most auto parts stores? Just in case you haven't ordered the tool yet.

Yeah, I know the tool you're thinking about, but it won't work unless it's for a hub that's 1.25" in diameter. Kinda small, I would think...besides, I've already ordered the tool.
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Post by babblefish »

Since so many prefer show 'n tell rather than just tell:

Image

The set of gears on the far left is what the starter motor drives (located right behind the gears). The big gear in the middle is the starter clutch. Note the castlelated nut holding it on. It has a one-way bearing (underneath) which allows the starter motor to turn the crankshaft for starting, but once started, the big gear does not spin when the engine is running on it's own. The metal plate on the far right covers the oil pump/chain drive. It gets driven via a chain directly from the crankshaft. The gold colored thing above the oil pump plate is one of two banjo bolts which secures the oil lines coming from the oil cooler/filter.
From what I've seen of the internals so far, it is at least the equal in quality of any japanese motorcycle engine that I've worked on.
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Post by babblefish »

In case anyone is interested, I contacted the seller (autotech355) of the +4.2mm crankshaft and was told it includes a 2mm thick aluminum spacer to go under the cylinder. I'm assuming the chain tensioner can accommodate for the extra 2mm and that the exhaust system can be adjusted for it.

Image

I'm not very good at math, so can someone figure out the displacement of an engine that has a 58.5mm bore and a 62mm stroke? With a 59.6mm stroke?
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Post by Lostmycage »

58.5, 62[s]= 166.65cc
58.5, 59.6[s]= 160.19cc

Other sized cylinders with that 62mm stroke:
61, 62[s]= 181.19
62, 62[s]= 187.18
63, 62[s]= 193.27

And for good measure:
61, 59.6[s]= 174.18
62, 59.6[s]= 179.94
63, 59.6[s]= 185.79
Last edited by Lostmycage on Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by babblefish »

That's great Lost! Thanks for doing the math. I assume the second displacement calculation is a typo and is for a 58.5mm bore and a 59.6mm stroke.

Since I'm tearing the engine completely down anyway, I'm starting to wonder if it might be a good idea to just go ahead and have the crankcase machined for a bigger bore. The cost difference isn't much and I'll be getting a lot more displacement. Hummmmm.....
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Post by Lostmycage »

Hehe, that was a typo. I fixed it above.

If you're going to tear it down I'd at least go to 61mm bore... machining is minimal on the ceramic kits (some iron kits don't require machining at all). I mean... might as well, right? :twisted:
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Post by babblefish »

And the saga continues...
Wow, I just received the tool that I ordered two days ago. That was quick. Anyway, with the help of my impact wrench, got the starter clutch nut off. Note to anyone else doing this: the nut uses reverse threads - clockwise to remove. Split the cases and found no metal particles inside. The oil does look pretty dirty though - like it's burnt. Now I have to figure out how to remove the "nut" that's on the left (variator) side. I have an idea in mind. Might try it later tonight.

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Post by babblefish »

OK, I spoke too soon. That isn't a threaded nut, it's tapered and is pressed onto the crankshaft. The two holes are threaded and all one has to do is screw a couple of 5mm screws into them to pop it off. Crankshaft removed. Everything looks perfectly normal about it including the connecting rod - except the fact that the rod can't be moved on the crank.

BTW: Look at this picture. It shows one side of the crankcase with the cylinder studs still in place. Note the amount of material between the stud and the opening for the cylinder liner - it's only 3mm. I'm not sure how much is removed when boring for a 62 or 63mm overbore, but it sure won't leave much material to support the stud. Can't be good for the engine's longevity. Anyone with real world experience with this?

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Last edited by babblefish on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lostmycage »

That's the thing that kept me away from the 63mm kits... I've seen a few cases that were machined out to take that large of a bore and it looked like paper. I think it depends on how thick the cylinder sleeve is. The 61mm kits that I was looking at (NCY from SW) needed 1mm or less removed and that was for the ceramic coated. I gave up on it because I heard too many varying stories from different suppliers which lead to enough frustration to back burner it... then I found the Beo, lol.

It sounds like you've had a bearing go bad. I think that's what's happened it most of the Blur engine failures that I've heard about.
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Post by babblefish »

Yeah, from a reliability standpoint, I'll probably just use the 58.5mm kit. I just noticed how close the oil supply port is to the edge of the case - can't be more than 1.5mm.
I found a series of stupid videos on YouTube where these guys claimed to have converted a 150cc GY6 scooter to 200cc by just replacing the stock piston/sleeve with a 64mm(?!) kit without increasing the stroke. Yeah, right. In one shot, you can see that the sleeve opening was right up against the cylinder studs and pass the oil supply port. That's gotta be good for longevity. They also show the scoot doing 80 mph using a chase car to confirm the speed. Of course, they were sponsored by MRP.
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Post by Lostmycage »

babblefish wrote:Of course, they were sponsored by MRP.
Sounds about right. :roll:

If you don't want to bore (and that's completely understandable), I'd go with the 58.5mm kit and the 62mm crank since you know you'll have to replace the crank and you know it comes with the right shim.

Look up Mr Miller and zsno who've both put the 61mm cast iron kit in their blackjacks.

Here's a few reference threads:

viewtopic.php?p=198405&highlight=#198405

viewtopic.php?p=203179&highlight=#203179

It seems that the ceramic cylinders use thicker sleeves (makes sense). The iron cylinders supposedly go right in. Sadly, I can't say first hand if it's that easy or not, but this might open up some options. Also, the iron kits are cheaper, hehe.
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Post by babblefish »

Well, someone on EBay is selling what he calls a 59mm kit that doesn't require machining, but I'm not sure if he's just rounding the 58.5 number or it really is 59mm. How close does a 59mm bore and 62mm stroke come to 170cc?
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Post by Lostmycage »

169.51

Pretty close in my book. If you're not picky about ceramic vs cast iron, I'd look at the NCY iron kit. I'd call them up at Scooterworks to verify that it will fit in the Blur - straight from the horse's mouth and all that bit.

Actually, I think Howard bored out the cases in his Buddy 150 to take a 62mm bore... it might be worth asking him for insight (or his shop?).

Also, I know you mentioned it before, but I think most kits are going to block off that EGR port... I'm not sure how important that is to you.

Davelhunter also had a lot of work done to his Blur - he had shipped it off to KS Power. They might have some insights on the different kits as well... but they did a lot of work to that motor and definitely cut the cases.


Pretty much whatever you do, it should perform better than stock, with the stroker crank in it. I'd look more at a larger valved head to go on it rather than a bore increase for some real power. The Blur's valves are smaller than the Buddy 150's, so even swapping out to a Buddy 150 head would offer a performance boost. Not that you needed even more decisions to make or anything, hehe.
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Post by babblefish »

Oh great, thanks for letting me know that my Blur's di_k is smaller than the Buddy's di_k. Now I have to go look for a better cylinder head. Fine, just fine. :sigh:

Anywhos, I looked at the NCY big bore kits, but didn't really want to spend that much money. I found a 59mm kit from www.scrappydogscooters.com that is made in Taiwan and, well, here is their description:

"This is a quality Taiwanese Denso DS 59mm big bore kit. This is the largest you can go without machining the crankcases. Quality Honda contract contruction unlike mainland China kits. Ceramic coated dome molybdenum solid lubed and Nikasil. Comes complete with all gaskets, piston, wrist pin, ring set, cylinder, and get this, even comes with new valve stem seals so you can refresh your head while you have it apart!"

They have it on EBay for $75. They also have a Taiwan-made big valve and ported head with sodium fill valves and Titanium keepers for $100.

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Post by Lostmycage »

Not bad at all. Sorry about the size thing... :oops:
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Post by gearhead »

This is build is awesome. It makes me want to tear my blur motor apart... but i'll wait till winter :P
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Post by babblefish »

Heh, I hope it is awesome when it's done and not awful! :)

Here's my game plan:

:arrow: 59mm big bore piston/cylinder - because machining of crankcase is not required and because engine longevity is more important to me than absolute power.
:arrow: New +4.2mm crankshaft (longer stroke) - because it costs the same as a stock crankshaft and is of equal or better quality compared to stock part. And because I live in a hilly city where torque is king.
:arrow: New cylinder head with bigger valves, port work and titanium valve spring keepers - because Lostmycage pointed out that my Blur's di_k is smaller than a Buddy's di_k. Just kidding - The price for the better head is reasonable and I wanted the bigger valves anyway and it saves me the time to do the port work myself.
:arrow: Port-match the cylinder head to the intake and exhaust manifolds.
:arrow: Replace stock airbox with a UNIFILTER foam air filter - because stock airbox is very restrictive.
:arrow: Rejet the stock carburator - because I don't want to spend the money for a bigger carb unless I have to .
:arrow: Replace the current 11gm variator sliders with 13gm (stock is 12gm) - because hopefully the hopped-up engine will produce more torque so heavier sliders may be beneficial for top-end speed without sacrificing accelleration.
:arrow: Stick with the stock exhaust system because the factory did it right.

...and the saga continues...
Last edited by babblefish on Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Variator weights

Post by davelhunter »

One thing I noticed when I did my big bore kit on my Blur 150 was that I assumed that I would need heavier weights to get the most out of it. I purchased a whole assortment of slider weights and was suprised that lighter than stock variator weights worked best. It was faster off the line and the top speed was better also because it let the motor rev higher. I would have thought the heavier weights would have been better, but in my case the lighter weights were the best. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was either 10gr or 11gr that I ended up with.
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Post by gearhead »

links of where you got the parts would be nice :)
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Post by babblefish »

gearhead wrote:links of where you got the parts would be nice :)
Are you asking me or davelhunter? :|
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Re: Variator weights

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davelhunter wrote:One thing I noticed when I did my big bore kit on my Blur 150 was that I assumed that I would need heavier weights to get the most out of it. I purchased a whole assortment of slider weights and was suprised that lighter than stock variator weights worked best. It was faster off the line and the top speed was better also because it let the motor rev higher. I would have thought the heavier weights would have been better, but in my case the lighter weights were the best. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was either 10gr or 11gr that I ended up with.
Thanks for the tip, I'll give lighter sliders a try. But, you used an A9 cam which is designed to make horsepower in the upper rpm range. I'm sticking with the stock cam for now and may go with either an A10 or A11, both of which are geared toward midrange power.
Just wondering, when you had your crankcase machined for the 62mm (or was it 63mm?) barrel, did you happen to notice how close the opening was to the cylinder studs, to the oil port? How many miles did you put on your modified engine and did it give you any problems? What stroke did you use? Sorry for all the questions and thanks for sharing.
Last edited by babblefish on Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by babblefish »

I wonder if this exhaust system is sold in the US - love the sound. 8)

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1kwPgk8fnRY&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1kwPgk8fnRY&hl ... &version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>
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Post by gearhead »

babblefish wrote:
gearhead wrote:links of where you got the parts would be nice :)
Are you asking me or davelhunter? :|
you babblefish! :D
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Post by babblefish »

Oh, OK. :)

:arrow: 59mm piston/cylinder kit - www.scrappydogscooters.com
:arrow: 59mm cylinder head w/oversize valves, port work, Ti keepers - www.scrappydogscooters.com
:arrow: Carburator jets ($2.99 each) - www.partsforscooters.com
:arrow: UNI filter - can't remember, bought a while ago.
:arrow: +4.2mm crankshaft - EBay, seller: autotech355
:arrow: Gasket set - EBay
:arrow: Tool to remove starter clutch nut - www.loncinengineparts.com

Update: Don't order anything from scrappydogscooters. Read my rant further down. Basically, they sent me inferior items in place of what I ordered then made excuses trying to convince me that what I got were actually better. To add insult to injury, their return policy is for store credit only which is good for only 30 days! :roll:

Edit: Scrappydog parts aren't always crappy, actually most are quite good, but their return policy still stinks, IMO.
Last edited by babblefish on Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by babblefish »

Another update:

Finished disassembly of engine and cleaned engine cases.
Oil pump is toast. Looks like metal particles got into it and scored it's internals.
Found fairly large metal particles in the bottom of the drain plug - looks like bearing carrier/cage material. Probably from the connecting rod bearing. This would explain the scoring of the piston skirt too.
Reworked some of the oil ports/channels to improve flow and volume. The outlet port at the drain plug/filter was especially small. This port feeds the oil pump so its especially important to make sure there's adequate flow here. The ports where the banjo bolts (in/out for oil cooler/filter) screw into looked somewhat restrictive too so those also got the Dremel treatment.
Once I get the new cylinder head in my hot little hands, I'll see if I'm satisfied with the factory port work. If not, it's Dremel time!

Pictures:

Image Left/Right crankcase halves. The crankshaft lives here.
Image Crankcase halves together.
Image Bottom of engine.
Image Top of engine.
Image I ate my dinner off the inside of this...

More to come...
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Post by gearhead »

I LOVE IT! man this is great! keep the pics coming! I've definitely got my eye on this thread. :twisted:

btw, what kind of vlave clearance are you going to get with that 4.2mm crank?
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