About to complain, tell me if out of line

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Sun May 22, 2016 6:01 pm

I had my rear tire changed yesterday and have noticed a loud rattling sound ever since. Turns out, the person didn't put the lowermost bolt which connects the exhaust to the body. Going to try to use some hanger wire for now since they aren't open today but I want that back. How is the exhaust being held to the frame?

When I picked up the thing yesterday, the first thing I did was check the tire pressure. It was 13psi. To me, that's flat. Maybe some people ride that way but the manual calls for 25 and I usually fill it to 30. I told him it was flat and he said he didn't have a digital gauge so he might have gotten a different reading. Then, because I got my brakes changed too, I checked those. They were super loose. I had to pull the handle all the way in. He said he did that on purpose because new brakes grab too much.

I don't know about all this. Last time I had a tire changed, they filled it to 40psi and I had to take air out.

When I got an oil change at my old mechanic in Boston, they did all sorts of stuff wrong including putting the double amount of gear oil in the box. I found out months later when I drained it.

I assume mistakes are common but this last time seems too much given and obvious safety issues

Changing a tire seems like routine procedures. Why are they making so many careless mistakes? I left a message to tell them I want to come by and get that bolt. Then we need to have a talk about safety and carelessness. Am I out of line here?

dasscooter · Post by **dasscooter** » Sun May 22, 2016 6:41 pm

Don't ride it without an exhaust bolt. The other one can shear and the exhaust break in half. I've seen it happen.

Crappy scooter mechanics are everywhere nowadays. Good technicians like me are being pushed out of the scooter niche because of the ever dwindling profit margins and the rise of ordering everything online.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Sun May 22, 2016 7:19 pm

Retrieve the bolt, leave the shop and don't ever return. I've found that shoddy mechanics/shops pay no attention whatsoever to complaints, no matter how civil or uncivil. And that's not to say they're all lousy. The good ones are worth their weight in gold.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Sun May 22, 2016 7:39 pm

Does anyone know what size the bolt is in case they don't have it and I need to go to the hardware store?

The people who run this shop have been very helpful to me in the past including vouching for me at the DMV when I bought my scooter used and the VIN didn't match the title.

The guy who runs the service department is the only person I don't really know that well. He's much more impersonal than the others. The other people have struck up discussions with me about equipment, but the service guy isn't much into smalltalk. He's very much, "Yeah, just leave it here and we'll get to when we can." Also, they seem to have rotating mechanics. I never know who's working on my scooter.

The mechanic is about a 20-minute ride from my workplace, but since daascooter has posted that the bike is unrideable, I'm going to ask them to deliver the bolt to me and see what they say.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Sun May 22, 2016 7:55 pm

Hey dasscooter,

Are we talking about the same thing? See the attached image. I'm not talking about the bolts that hold the pipe to the engine underneath. I'm talking about the big bolt on the side that holds the pipe to the wheel.

Right now it vibrates at low speed causing the metal from the exhaust to bang against the metal frame of the wheel. At highway speeds, the wheel is spinning so fast that the vibration stops.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Sun May 22, 2016 8:40 pm

Who is the shop? I have no problem warning people about shady sales guys (Cycle World on Virginia Beach Blvd.) or get-it-wrong, all-the-time Import Cycle Center (also on Virginia Beach Blvd.) as much as I dont mind promoting great shops. Scoot Richmond (honest and up front) and Sunrise Cycles (great parts dept.-on Little Creek in Norfolk).

dasscooter · Post by **dasscooter** » Sun May 22, 2016 8:54 pm

Yes, don't ride it. OEM mufflers are upwards of $500 plus drilling out the sheared off bolts when they shear off.

It's a littlr tricky to get everything lined up with the extra adapter that the Buddy uses. He probably didn't know enough to get it back together correctly.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Sun May 22, 2016 11:03 pm

The holes look lined up. I think he just forgot to put the bolt in...I hope. I'll try to pick it up tomorrow. I hope they didn't lose it.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon May 23, 2016 5:19 am

This is why I do all my work myself.

The shop I bought my scooter from was ridiculously expensive and did shoddy work.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon May 23, 2016 3:36 pm

Of course, you have every reason to be displeased by shoddy work. That is also why, when you find a good shop and a good mechanic, you patronize them. Folks are so quick to buy parts and accessories on line these days. I buy everything I can from my local scooter shop. They are good folks and I want to keep them around.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Mon May 23, 2016 8:27 pm

I'd make an appt. with the manager and, in person, let him know that you've lost confidence in their service and explain why: not filling a tire and failing to replace an important bolt, etc. Ask him why this happened and Why should you continue to trust the shop and it's mechanics? A good shop will try to make amends if they care.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon May 23, 2016 10:08 pm

Ucandoit has the perfect reply. Go in, be civil and see what they do for you. As a good conscientious mechanic myself. We are rushed some days and don't have the time to talk to people nicely, BUT I never rush my service work. I have been at it since 1986, and I am good at what I do. I hope I have never let a street tire leave with just 13 PSI. That is being in way too much of a rush.

You may be doing a good thing. That mechanic may need to slow down and pay more attention to detail. Just remember to be civil. There are days where the machines try our patience more than the people. Most of us respond very well to conversation. Anger will get you no where.

The bolt is a problem, but the tire worries me even more. And yes, those bolts require a little finesse to get in correctly, but thats why we are mechanics

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Tue May 24, 2016 12:12 am

Took care of this. The manager took full responsibility right away. Offered $100 off the next service. I told him I wasn't calling him to try to get anyone in trouble. If anything, this is a warning of what's to come if he doesn't straighten out his workers.

Obviously they have demonstrated that safety isn't the priority it should be and their carelessness is putting people's lives at risk. I'm upset I'm inconvenienced by all this, but I'm also greatly disturbed that this could have had fatal consequences. I'll gladly take the discount but, more importantly, I want to see him get a grip on what's going on under his watch.

I was convinced that the manager took this seriously enough and his mechanic is probably in for a beatdown anyway. This was handled in a calm, collected and professional manner.

I talked to him on the phone, but then needed to go in and retrieve the bolt. He couldn't find it so he pulled one off a new scooter. We shook hands and he thanked me for being patient.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Tue May 24, 2016 1:35 am

mukaiboston wrote:I talked to him on the phone, but then needed to go in and retrieve the bolt. He couldn't find it so he pulled one off a new scooter.

Great. Now some poor sap is going to run into the same problem with his/her brand new scooter.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:48 am

Glad to hear it was handled well, and hopefully that was the wake up call needed.

I have pulled things off a new bike before to keep a customer "on the road". We just always throw a sticker on the bike AND in the bikes file till it gets replaced. With it in the file, even if you forgot. It will be in there when you go to set-up the bike. Can't miss it

FromHereToThere · Post by **FromHereToThere** » Tue May 24, 2016 11:40 am

dasscooter wrote:Yes, don't ride it. OEM mufflers are upwards of $500 plus drilling out the sheared off bolts when they shear off.

It's a littlr tricky to get everything lined up with the extra adapter that the Buddy uses. He probably didn't know enough to get it back together correctly.

I just bought a brand new OEM muffler for my Buddy from a guy on FB for $126 including shipping. I guess I got a good deal.

And I've had to drill out a sheared muffler bolt because the mechanic over-tightened it. PITA.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Tue May 24, 2016 12:01 pm

More bad news. Put the bolt on last night. Rattling continued. Turns out, there were two additional bolts missing. Went to the hardware store now that I have the size, but one bolt is a few millimeters too long. I believe it's in a driveable state but I'm going to try to swap out a slightly shorter bolt just in case. This is unbelievable. So I'm going to call up the manager again and say that I want to come by this weekend to get the remaining two bolts and then have someone double-check the mechanic's work to verify that there are no more obvious errors like things missing or in the wrong place.

So I've driven probably about 50 miles with only one side bolt holding the exhaust up? I wouldn't be surprised if some type of issue popped up later from all the strain. This is an incredible case of neglect.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Tue May 24, 2016 12:34 pm

mukaiboston wrote:More bad news. Put the bolt on last night. Rattling continued. Turns out, there were two additional bolts missing. Went to the hardware store now that I have the size, but one bolt is a few millimeters too long. I believe it's in a driveable state but I'm going to try to swap out a slightly shorter bolt just in case. This is unbelievable. So I'm going to call up the manager again and say that I want to come by this weekend to get the remaining two bolts and then have someone double-check the mechanic's work to verify that there are no more obvious errors like things missing or in the wrong place.

So I've driven probably about 50 miles with only one side bolt holding the exhaust up? I wouldn't be surprised if some type of issue popped up later from all the strain. This is an incredible case of neglect.

Well, Ho-lee Crap.

If I've read the narrative right, you found additional missing hardware after your meeting with the manager, wherein he assured you all would be made right? Had he eyeballed your scooter at that time?

This is important info for me personally: we're in the same area, and as you know, scooter dealers are few and far between in these parts. I'm looking for a new scoot, buuuuuut...not from these guys.

I'm in general agreement with the principle that posters should not identify shops by name on public forums when they are unhappy with repair/maintenance work - there's too much room for error.

Nonetheless, I'm stuck in a little dealer-roulette quandary now. Positive Yelp reviews notwithstanding, it's very difficult to know who is reliable/responsible/professional/competent, and who is not. Huh.

iwannascoot · Post by **iwannascoot** » Tue May 24, 2016 1:51 pm

I think you should post about dealer experiences, both positive and negative. If dealers thought you were going to share their quality of service they might be a bit more contentious in their work.

I bought my Buddy from Twist 'n' Scoot in Atlanta and I was very pleased with their business. Mine had the defective white wall tires so they replaced the tires while I waited and I took delivery. It was a pleasant experience. The only down side is they are 65 miles away from me.

Billy

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Tue May 24, 2016 4:53 pm

redhandmoto wrote:
Well, Ho-lee Crap.

If I've read the narrative right, you found additional missing hardware after your meeting with the manager, wherein he assured you all would be made right? Had he eyeballed your scooter at that time?
.

No, he hasn't seen it yet. A previous poster told me not to ride it without bolts. I need to get them all set before I can ride it to the shop.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Tue May 24, 2016 11:28 pm

The shop needs to come get the scooter and do all the work correctly, or else give you a refund. I'm sorry to sound tough, but you should document things also. Do not let them hand the problem to you to fix. You paid good money. You should NOT have to go to hardware stores trying to correct their mistakes.

Legally, they are in the wrong.
Call the manager and either ask for a refund, or a guarantee they will come get the scooter promptly and repair it correctly to YOUR satisfaction. It doesn't matter how nice the mechanics are ; they need to be competent and thorough and safe. I would no longer trust the shop and search for another one. If you're fed up and don't trust them, just ask for a refund.
Yes, it's good to be nice, but letting them off the hook for dangerous sloppy work will never make them a responsible shop. Your action could save the next customer.

thumper650 · Post by **thumper650** » Wed May 25, 2016 1:38 am

You know what they say, If you want something done right........

I wouldn't let these pin heads work on a tricycle. This is why I also do my own m'cycle and scooter maintenance, if there's anything I can't handle, I take it to a dealer in Rhode Island some 90 miles away. Unfortunately they're the only one I trust.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Wed May 25, 2016 4:25 am

I got ya beat thumper, but only by 10 miles. If I dont feel like fussing with something my trusted dealership is 100 miles away. Because Im extremely lazy I usually end up doing the work myself. If I take it to them its almost an all-day trip. Fiddle with my ratty motorcycle trailer to my junky truck, get caught in grid lock traffic, stop at the rest area and double check everything is still secure (half way point) then get to the shop and shoot the crap with them for awhile. Then leave and stop at the record store, grab lunch somewhere and repeat the traffic jams going home. We got 3 scoots and a bike, so one can be down while fixing it.

sc00ter · Post by **sc00ter** » Wed May 25, 2016 4:30 am

Oh, I get it-you got a KLR thumper! I love me a KLR and a DR Suzuki. The DR650 was the fist bike I learned wheelies on AND the first bike that slammed me on the ground when stunts went wrong! Fun times and always fun bikes!

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Wed May 25, 2016 5:33 am

ucandoit wrote:The shop needs to come get the scooter and do all the work correctly, or else give you a refund. I'm sorry to sound tough, but you should document things also. Do not let them hand the problem to you to fix. You paid good money. You should NOT have to go to hardware stores trying to correct their mistakes.

Yeah, I know I shouldn't have to. Honestly, I didn't think the problem would be this extensive and it's also time vs. money. One hardware store is two blocks from my house and another is two blocks from my work so that's 15 minutes and 85 cents. If I go back to the mechanic, that's $4 and 1 hour to go one way on the subway. Also, if they tow or come to my house, I've got to take off work.

I also have to keep in mind that this is the Genuine dealer for this area so I'm going to need them for certain things.

The manager offered me $100 off the next service, but I think I'm going to ask for a $100 refund instead because I paid them for some of this work that I ended up doing. I also want to bring it in and have them inspect it for anything else that this faulty mechanic couldn't have done.

I'm also interested in what type of training their mechanics go through if any at all. This is the dealer we're talking about. Their people are supposed to know how their own scooters get put back together.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Wed May 25, 2016 11:57 am

Genuine's website still lists four dealers for the greater Washington, DC area, but only three are still in business (Genuine/Vespa of Arlington, VA was sold in 2013. The new owners eventually moved down the block, then dropped the Genuine line, and now only handle Vespa, Piaggio, Aprilia, and Moto Guzzi). No idea why Genuine corporate stills lists a closed dealer three years later.

The three remaining are in Silver Spring, College Park, and NE Washington. Way, way farther out are Genuine dealers in Richmond, Annapolis, and Carlisle, PA. Real scooter dealers (excepting Tao Tao-ites) are very thin on the ground in these parts; getting good local scooter service is grossly inconvenient, and will cause expense in time and money.

So you're kinda stuck, in the sense that you'll either have to work on the bike yourself, find a good independent shop, or reach some sort of accommodation with these guys if you will have to rely on the Metro/public transport to get to a shop.

As to the qualifications/expertise of mechanics: that can be, uh, hit or miss. I've been buying bikes in the DC area since '08; at some of the biggest dealers around here (of all types, not just scooters), I've encountered factory-trained/certified pros, Wyotech graduates, self-taught, shade-tree guys, and stone bandits.

Recommendations on sites like Yelp, while helpful, are inconsistent in reliability. I've had crappy and indifferent service from highly-rated shops and vice-versa.

One small thought regarding replacing nuts, bolts, small connectors yourself in a pinch: it is important that any replacements you use have the appropriate strength/quality rating, and those are not always available at local hardware stores. Motorcycle parts counters can often help you with the small bits.

But one of the best resources for you is right here at Modern Buddy, where experienced and helpful people are always available, and at no cost. Service, repair, and maintenance stuff can also be swiftly had from Scooterwest and others, on the web and over the phone; I personally know that the Scooterwest guys will happily talk your ear off in giving parts advice.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Wed May 25, 2016 12:32 pm

redhandmoto wrote: One small thought regarding replacing nuts, bolts, small connectors yourself in a pinch: it is important that any replacements you use have the appropriate strength/quality rating, and those are not always available at local hardware stores.

I'm going to tell the dealer I want to come by this weekend and get the original bolts. For this fix, I did what I could. I called Modern Classics, another dealer in the area, to get the bolt size. Then I went to the hardware store and got a stainless steal bolt with washer.

It fits, but I'll keep an eye on it in case it comes out. I put another bolt in a hole under the mudguard, but I'm not sure there was ever a bolt there to begin with.

One thing I am happy about is that the holes all lined up which is something I was very concerned about. I did notice that the bolt on the wheel, being the only side bolt holding up the exhaust, was coming loose. If I had not caught this problem, that bolt could have come out and the exhaust would have fallen off.

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Wed May 25, 2016 12:46 pm

Most excellent!

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Wed May 25, 2016 3:32 pm

Mukaiboston---I really wish you the best and hope you get the scooter fixed solidly one way or another so that you feel confident about it.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Wed May 25, 2016 5:55 pm

I called him up. Started to explain that I found the top bolt missing as well. He cut me short and told me that there are three bolts and it would not have been possible to have ridden around with only one bolt.

He said to bring the bike back to the shop so he can look at it himself because he thinks something else is going on. Or maybe he doesn't trust me? I'll try to do that this weekend, but I'm honestly not sure if I really want to deal with it anymore. The time and aggravation is surpassing the value of the monetary savings.

A lot of people on here are telling me to make them work on the scooter until it's good and then never go back. That doesn't make sense because, if the work was so bad that I'm never going back, why would I go back there now to do the same work over? How do I know they aren't going to fix the exhaust and then something else breaks?

It's unfair work for me to repair this myself but then I know EXACTLY what was done.

So...anyone in DC have recommendations for a mechanic? I prefer the smaller, intimate shops. I had that when I lived in Boston and found out about them from a flyer on a lamppost. It was a hole-in-the-wall place, but work was always done quickly and accurately. The mechanic there even taught me how to do some basic stuff myself so I could save time by not coming in as much.

All the bolts have been replaced at this point. Should I be worried about any negative effects on the exhaust since there was essentially only one bolt holding it to the side? I had the muffler snap at the gasket area on my Buddy 50 from corrosion and the vibrations probably did it in so that's why I'm worried.

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Wed May 25, 2016 6:16 pm

do you have towing on your insurance or are you still under the original warranty for your scooter? if so, how about having it picked up and delivered to the new shop?

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Wed May 25, 2016 6:51 pm

I'd take it back, remain low-key, show him the bolts you replaced from the hardware store, and see how he reacts.

Stay calm & respectful; neither of you anything to gain by pissing the other off.

If you are still unsatisfied afterwards, post a detailed review on Yelp, and move on to another Genuine shop.

Quo Vadimus · Post by **Quo Vadimus** » Wed May 25, 2016 8:25 pm

The rest of you commenters have a lot of free time.

I didn't see if you posted how much $$$ you're into this at the moment, but take a moment and seriously consider how much TIME you're into it. Then consider how much more time you might get into it for. Then consider if you'll ever really trust their service again, anyway?

Now ask yourself: would I pay $$$ in order to not have to deal with all of this annoyance and negativity AND to get x number of free hours back in my life? My answer is yes pretty much as often as I ask myself that question. It's hard, I'm a very justice-oriented individual, so my instinct is "the principle," but really. We're here for a short time. Cutting losses is way underrated as a strategy for happiness.

mukaiboston · Post by **mukaiboston** » Thu May 26, 2016 12:46 am

The bolts I replaced from the hardware store have held up. I've ridden around for a while and everything is fine. If I'm still feeling like it Saturday or something related breaks, I'll bring it by and ask him to look at it but I'm willing to drop this now.

Fixing this issue myself probably cost me less than $10 and about an hour. I don't feel like making special trips to the shop and waiting around for them to do stuff.

I'll probably make them my second or third choice if I can't get work done elsewhere.

thumper650 · Post by **thumper650** » Thu May 26, 2016 2:11 am

"Quo Vadimus"]The rest of you commenters have a lot of free time.

Free time is awesome. I've got loads of it coming in a few days!!

EDIT: I even had time to edit this post!

redhandmoto · Post by **redhandmoto** » Thu May 26, 2016 11:41 am

mukaiboston wrote:The bolts I replaced from the hardware store have held up. I've ridden around for a while and everything is fine. If I'm still feeling like it Saturday or something related breaks, I'll bring it by and ask him to look at it but I'm willing to drop this now.

Fixing this issue myself probably cost me less than $10 and about an hour. I don't feel like making special trips to the shop and waiting around for them to do stuff.

I'll probably make them my second or third choice if I can't get work done elsewhere.

Excellent.

FWIW, I'd drop by and have them look it over anyway. You've established a relationship, and that would be a chance to lighten the mood, so to speak. Hereinafter, they will "know" your bike - and you - and will likely be a lot more attentive in future. It's worth giving them a chance, anyhow.

And then there's that offer for $100 off on your next service

Good luck, whatever you may decide.