Tire Pressure for Riding on Gravel

coyotekathy · Post by **coyotekathy** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:45 pm

Howdy. Grandma newbie here with 256 miles on my new Buddy 170i. Made the purchase before doing ANY research; story of my life. My Buddy lives at the top of a long [200'] sloping [25 degree] gravel driveway. I am 5'2", 170 lbs. and changed out the seat to aftermarket so I'd be an inch closer to the ground. The tires are Michelin S83. I have followed threads on tire pressure all over the internet map, and, since selling my home and moving to the flatlands isn't practical, I would sure welcome some input specific to my situation. Such as: 1. what tire pressure is best on gravel, and 2. any advice on how to get down my driveway in one piece, and 3. is there a better tire for my situation? I otherwise will be doing mostly highway riding at speeds between 35 and 55 mph.? Thanks in advance for any and all comments and advice.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:34 pm

You won't want to hear this, but a scooter probably wasn't the best choice with a driveway like that. 25 degrees in gravel is not easy by any means.

If you have lots of dirt bike or mountain biking experience, gravel is no problem. But for a newbie, it's a big problem. If you were under 40, I'd tell you to get some experience offroad to learn how to ride gravel properly. But, I suspect you are older than that and I'm concerned you could really hurt yourself.

Usually you'll have a few wipeouts learning to ride sand, loose dirt over hardpack, and gravel. When you're younger and made of rubber, you roll when you hit the deck, jump back up, dust off, climb back on, and keep going. When you're older, you just break bones.

A tire with more aggressive lugs will help, especially uphill. Tire pressure isn't the issue. Skill is. The deeper the gravel is, the harder.

I'd suggest clearing the gravel from one side of your driveway down to bare dirt or pave a 3 foot wide path down the driveway.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 pm

Don't use the front brake. Buy gear with armor. Wear a helmet and gloves with armored knuckles. Wear boots. Go slow, don't let the speed get away from you. Practice sliding the rear wheel with the back brake (to get used to what happens). My grandmother learned to ride in her late 40's, so don't let age limit you. Preparation, practice and good riding gear that protects your hips/elbows/knees/shoulders/spine/head/hands/feet will overcome any "age" related issues. You are never too old or too young to learn something new.

coyotekathy · Post by **coyotekathy** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:53 pm

Really appreciate the concern, and the tips. Am in the process of gearing up, and clearing a path on the driveway. I have eye-balled some "landings" where the driveway sort of levels out for a bit, and will practice coming to a controlled stop and waiting until my heart rate subsides before proceeding. Am assuming from replies that tire pressure between 25 and 30 lbs is okay. Let's get to it!! BTW, I turn 71 next week.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:38 pm

k1dude wrote:You won't want to hear this, but a scooter probably wasn't the best choice with a driveway like that. 25 degrees in gravel is not easy by any means.

This is my immediate thought as well. This problem has no easy or certain solution. Any possibility of a different route to your house or a different place to park the scooter? This does not sound like it will end well.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:41 pm

Stitch wrote:Don't use the front brake.

I understand what you are trying to say here. If she locks her front wheel up going downhill, she'll go down hard by washing her front wheel out and getting kicked off. But I have to disagree with the advice. In her case, it would be better to apply both brakes evenly, smoothly, and gently. If she's only using her rear brake and applies too much rear brake, it will cause sliding. With experience, the sliding is easily managed. With inexperience, it usually causes a wipe out due to freaking out. The front brake provides most of the stopping power. Applying both brakes evenly, smoothly, and gently will give her more stopping power while mitigating the potential of a sideways slide. Her slowing will remain straight unless she locks either tire. You absolutely have to keep your cool no matter what and stay on the bike and DO NOT LOCK UP EITHER TIRE. Just keep gliding through the gravel and maintain your wits and balance about you no matter what sliding/disengaging input you may perceive. You can adjust your balance accordingly, but don't freak and bail unless it's very clearly obvious you're going down. Don't lean too much. Try to keep your body position upright, body weight back, and still. I could agree if there is any bias choosing more front or rear brake, definitely choose more rear brake. A slide is much easier to manage than your front wheel washing out. But I think the use of both brakes are in order.

Going uphill in deep gravel is more of a concern than going downhill. If you apply too much throttle you'll begin to lose traction, momentum, and start to fishtail. Not good. Don't goose the throttle. Try to enter the gravel at the proper speed and throttle setting to maintain forward momentum all the way up the driveway. It'll take trial and error to figure out what that speed and throttle position is. Once you figure it out, keep your RPM's steady the whole way. But don't enter too fast if it's a long driveway or deep gravel. The change in medium will be like slamming on the brakes and it'll throw you off the scooter. Your body weight should be forward. If you had dirt biking skills you'd be able to properly judge it the first time. Since you don't have those skills you'll have to use trial and error.

With youth and a dirt bike, it'd be no problem at all since you can afford going down and you have the right tires and a lot of power to help you out. You could power your way up throwing gravel all over the place. But not at your age with a scooter and essentially bald tires.

The biggest difference between an experienced rider and a newbie is the experienced rider won't be rattled by the sliding of the bike on loose medium and they'll stay on. Newbies freak out/freeze and bail way too soon.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:56 pm

The reason I said not to use the front brake is because it's really hard to explain how it feels when the tire breaks traction. She has no way to gauge it until she slides a tire a few times. Ideally she will go practice riding somewhere before she attempts her first 10 seconds of riding on a steep gravel hill. I would think at 71, she has a little more common sense than the average teen ager.

Everyone acts like scooters are somehow more helpless in dirt and gravel and snow than other two wheeled machines. They aren't, in fact, the lower center of gravity and automatic transmission and lack of foot controls make them easier to operate in slow speed off road conditions. Two of my scooters are fantastic in the snow.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:32 pm

Stitch wrote:The reason I said not to use the front brake is because it's really hard to explain how it feels when the tire breaks traction. She has no way to gauge it until she slides a tire a few times. Ideally she will go practice riding somewhere before she attempts her first 10 seconds of riding on a steep gravel hill. I would think at 71, she has a little more common sense than the average teen ager.

That doesn't negate the fact that most stopping power comes from the front wheel and a beginner in a back wheel slide will likely fall. Using both brakes is still the best option regardless if they are a beginner or experienced. I have 45 years of dirt bike and mountain bike experience. I suggest you read some "how to" trail riding tips.

Stitch wrote:Everyone acts like scooters are somehow more helpless in dirt and gravel and snow than other two wheeled machines. They aren't, in fact, the lower center of gravity and automatic transmission and lack of foot controls make them easier to operate in slow speed off road conditions. Two of my scooters are fantastic in the snow.

I don't recall anyone ever claiming that. Of the two threads on this topic I recall reading, both involved brand new riders. This particular thread involves a brand new elderly rider. All caution should be considered in this case. You have experience, she doesn't. You also aren't as breakable as she is.

But to address your point, scooters are indeed less capable in dirt, gravel, and snow. If they weren't, everyone would be riding them in dirt, gravel, and snow instead of trail bikes. However, just because they aren't as capable doesn't mean they don't have capabilities. They do fine in those conditions within reason as long as you have experience and aren't an elderly newbie.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:48 pm

Cool. Explain to her how to compensate for a front wheel slide.
And then explain how to balance front and rear brakes, and how to control the natural reaction to brake harder when she starts to slide.

I just figured it was easier to let her learn how to handle loss of traction and the subsequent manipulation of one brake instead of two at the same time.
You, however, are a master at teaching these techniques, so have at it. Make sure to discourage a new rider based on your perception of age and the terrain.

MrIcky · Post by **MrIcky** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:54 pm

OP, I ride my hooligan in gravel and dirt fairly frequently. I don't know how deep your gravel drive is and that makes a difference, but I'll give you my advice.

Set your psi where you'd normally keep it per the manufacturers recommendations. My hooligan says 30 psi and I keep it there. Don't change your psi to something really low when it's only 200 feet out of a several mile journey. I'd be more worried about underinflated tires on a 15 mile highway drive.

Do everything smoothly and slowly.

Look far up the drive and try to keep looking up, especially if you do feel it wiggling. If you feel the scooter wiggle and look down (which a lot of people do) you will probably go down.

Honestly it's not that bad, especially for just 200 feet unless you have really deep pea gravel or something like that. The main thing is just do everything calmly and smoothly and always look where you want to go, never where you don't (because you'll always end up where you look).

The biggest issue will be at the transition from the highway to your driveway. You'll want to complete your turn in the road as best as possible so that you hit your driveway with your scooter upright.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:03 pm

Stitch wrote:Explain to her how to compensate for a front wheel slide.
And then explain how to balance front and rear brakes, and how to control the natural reaction to brake harder when she starts to slide.

I thought about trying to explain that to a 71 year old inexperienced rider. I then thought about myself - a 69 year old rider with many years of riding experience. I asked myself if I would try to ride a Buddy up and down a 25% grade 200' gravel driveway. My answer was no.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:31 pm

Stitch wrote:Cool. Explain to her how to compensate for a front wheel slide.
And then explain how to balance front and rear brakes, and how to control the natural reaction to brake harder when she starts to slide.

I just figured it was easier to let her learn how to handle loss of traction and the subsequent manipulation of one brake instead of two at the same time.
You, however, are a master at teaching these techniques, so have at it. Make sure to discourage a new rider based on your perception of age and the terrain.

Why do I have to teach her to use each brake independently? Why would I teach advanced techniques to a beginner? Why do you think I suggested using both brakes evenly, smoothly, and gently? My technique is a heck of a lot easier and safer than telling her to use one brake only.

And yes, I will continue to discourage anyone that is doing something I consider unsafe.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:55 pm

It's riding. It's inherently unsafe.

Post by **jrsjr** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:25 am

Coyotekathy, we all want to help you sort this out and keep you riding, but there are just too many factors working against you. In addition to all the riding issues everybody mentions above, I see that you say you are 5'2" tall. That means that the best trick we have won't work for you. The basics of successfully getting down that hill all involve weight transfer, basically shifting your weight toward the rear of the scooter by sliding back on the seat. At 5'2", you are not going to be able to do that. You're going to be sliding forward constantly and that's going to keep you from using the best trick we have, weight transfer. That, combined with the steep angle you describe (25 degrees!) is just too much to overcome.

You are fighting physics and, in these situations, physics inevitably wins. I hate to say it, but the financial loss you will take by ridding yourself of that scooter is way less than cost of the injuries you are going to incur. The cost of rehabbing one broken wrist could overwhelm the entire cost of your scooter.

We love riding. We love scooters. Almost all of the regular contributors on this site have continued to ride after a crash-related injury. But the situation you describe is too much to overcome. It's begging for trouble. If there's anything we can do to help you extricate yourself from this situation, just ask. We just don't want you to get badly hurt for no reason.

coyotekathy · Post by **coyotekathy** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:58 am

Grandma here. Still alive and intact. When I look at the drawing posted of a 25 degree slope, it really scares me; I may have--no, make that more definite--I DID overstate the degree of slope, based upon a pet ramp I use for my dogs. I really have no way of figuring the true slope, but 25 degrees looks way too steep. And the gravel is not deep; it is laying on top of base course and sort of rolls when I walk on it, which is why I was concerned in the first place. I am laying crusher fines over it and packing down the surface to make a three-foot wide path which will hopefully feel more stable. I will air up to 30 pounds and keep it there. I will sit back as far as possible on my lowered seat on the way down, and sit forward on the way up. I will approach the driveway at right angles, and drive up at a moderate pace the whole way, keeping my eyes on the prize 200' ahead. On the way down I will continue to use both brakes gently and simultaneously, always mindful of the left hand being the safer of the two. In order to have logged 200+ miles, I have actually made it up and down my driveway several times, but wanted some tips on how to feel more confident. Thanks again for all of your very specific hints, concerns, and advice.

MrIcky · Post by **MrIcky** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:41 pm

:thumbs up!

Invisibleanomaly · Post by **Invisibleanomaly** » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:09 pm

I have no advice, but I'm glad that it's working out for you so far! It sounds like you're being cautious and taking steps to make it as safe as you possibly can. I hope that you're able to keep riding safely and end up having a great time with your scooter!

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:34 am

Physics, much like gravity is not just a good idea. It is the law.

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:29 pm

Most Mountain Passes are 7 or 8 percent grade for what it is worth. Gavel is an aquired skill, prayer seem to help, and good for you to ride. I am not so young myself. R

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:30 pm

Most Mountain Passes are 7 or 8 percent grade for what it is worth. Gavel is an aquired skill, prayer seem to help, and good for you to ride. I am not so young myself. R

sunshinen · Post by **sunshinen** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:33 pm

coyotekathy wrote:Grandma here. Still alive and intact. When I look at the drawing posted of a 25 degree slope, it really scares me; I may have--no, make that more definite--I DID overstate the degree of slope, based upon a pet ramp I use for my dogs. I really have no way of figuring the true slope, but 25 degrees looks way too steep. And the gravel is not deep; it is laying on top of base course and sort of rolls when I walk on it, which is why I was concerned in the first place. I am laying crusher fines over it and packing down the surface to make a three-foot wide path which will hopefully feel more stable. I will air up to 30 pounds and keep it there. I will sit back as far as possible on my lowered seat on the way down, and sit forward on the way up. I will approach the driveway at right angles, and drive up at a moderate pace the whole way, keeping my eyes on the prize 200' ahead. On the way down I will continue to use both brakes gently and simultaneously, always mindful of the left hand being the safer of the two. In order to have logged 200+ miles, I have actually made it up and down my driveway several times, but wanted some tips on how to feel more confident. Thanks again for all of your very specific hints, concerns, and advice.

Yeah! Get it!

For more confidence: practice, good gear, and good tires.

I don't have any experience with the Michelin tires you mention (so they could be fine), but ... I'd look into a dual sport tire. A tire designed for off road can make a huge difference in gripping on loose surfaces and that can really boost your confidence.

sunshinen · Post by **sunshinen** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:18 pm

Also a motorcycle safety class is great.

ModernMike · Post by **ModernMike** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:05 pm

Is it possible to ride your scooter just off to the side of the gravel driveway?

If it's not wet, grass might be more stable than loose gravel. As mentioned before, braking is key.

Grass can be slippery even if dry, but given the choice it is likely more stable than loose gravel.