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bluezurich
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Problems with this article...

Post by bluezurich »

http://howto.wired.com/wiki/Trigger_Gre ... fic_Lights

1. Position your scooter sideways? Oh yeah...safe....("Just one moment Mr. Motorist while I realign my scoot to face forward")

2. No data behind the magnet debunking? Anyone here help me out with this one?

True the writer already discredits his/herself with the unsafe scooter positioning idea, why should I believe any of it right?
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ericalm
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Post by ericalm »

Well, those no reason to believe any of it if you don't want to, but the presence of some erroneous info or bad advice doesn't automatically invalidate all of it.

It does, however, make it somewhat more suspect and means it should be scrutinized a bit more closely than you might otherwise.

This "article" is actually part of a Wiki, meaning anyone can post info there or edit it. I don't know how the Wired How To Wiki is edited, or even how much traffic it gets from those who might be able to add info. I doubt it's as reliable as Wikipedia which has its own shortcomings and inaccuracies.

This type of informally written, poorly-researched, unsupported info presented as an "article" is increasingly common. It's only confused by its connection to a news outlet that's subjected to more stringent editorial criteria and fact checking.

As it is, the article does not suggest people position their scooters sideways, perpendicular to traffic.
For most small cars, scooters and motorcycles, triggering a green traffic light can be as simple as moving a little closer to the center of the lane. So if it's not triggering, try backing up, changing direction slightly, and rolling over it again.
If the sensor type is a loop (as most are), it helps if your scooter is positioned across the circle, over the center point.

The article does say to position yourself broadside to a camera if the light has video sensors. There's no reason not to believe that this would help. Depending on where the camera is located, though, it might be a pretty unsafe move.

We've discussed the magnet issue here before and many seem to disagree on it. I've heard first hand accounts of magnets working and others saying they're completely useless.

I tried to keep an open mind about magnets because some people were so evangelical about how well they worked. So I did lots of reading and ultimately came to the decision that magnets don't trigger lights. The sensors just don't work that way.

The basic argument that they don't work is that the inductive loops used as most sensors in streets don't detect magnetism or electromagnetic fields. They do detect masses of conductive materials (i.e., metal).

But that doesn't mean that having a magnet on the bottom of the scoot won't help trigger a light. A large, heavy neodymium magnet on the bottom of your scooter is a big ol' mass of metal positioned close to the ground. An unmagnetized, equivalent mass of an equally conductive metal would likely cause the same result.

So, IMHO: Magnets may help trigger lights, but that has more to do with their composition than magnetism.

There are some magnetic sensors but they're pretty uncommon.

What usually works for me: Repositioning the scooter, moving the scooter over the sensor a couple times or centering the scooter over the sensor and tapping the center stand on the asphalt.
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

ericalm wrote:
What usually works for me: Repositioning the scooter, moving the scooter over the sensor a couple times or centering the scooter over the sensor and tapping the center stand on the asphalt.
I totally agree with you eric. I tried magnets, lots of magnets :lol: I had a green light trigger and about four others and it only helped slighlty. The position of the scooter over the sensor as well as tapping the kickstand or center stand onto the asphalte has been much more successful, although stoplights are still not without thier frustrations. The ones that are the worst are those places where the road has been resurfaced. This increases the road thickness and if they don't recalibrate the sensor makes it impossible for small vehicles like scooters to trip the light.

btw depending on how good your city is about it, you can call your local traffic folks and tell them that you can't trip the light. Sometimes they will paint marks on the road to help you find the sensor (especialy helpful if the cut marks have been covered when the road was resurfaced) and they can increase the sensitivity of the sensor so that it can be tripped by scooters. Technically the sensors are suppossed to be set so that they are sensitive enough to be tripped by a bicycle but I find myself stuck at lights on either my bicycle or scooter quite often :(
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Post by Croatoan »

Have you tried this with rare earth magnets or plain ol ceramic magnets?
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Post by ericalm »

Croatoan wrote:Have you tried this with rare earth magnets or plain ol ceramic magnets?
Most of the magnets sold as triggers are rare earth magnets.
I haven't tried it at all. I have pretty good success without magnets.

Sometimes, you just have to wait. Scootering makes me a bit impatient about annoyances like traffic lights. Even if the sensor does detect me, I'll often sit at the light, thinking it hasn't or fidgeting while waiting for it to change. It's not as if the thing responds instantly. Sometimes you just have to wait.
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Post by scootergator »

Eric,

Isnt there a traffic control expert on MV. He builds the stop light systems, hed be the one to ask.
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Post by Croatoan »

Well, when I sit through two cycles of lights at a left turn arrow I quit waiting and get scooting.

In North Carolina it is legal for small vehicles to run red lights if they do not trigger.

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http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2007/Bill ... 1359v6.pdf
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Post by charlie55 »

The problem with neodymium and other rare earth magnets is that you have to stop every so often to remove the manhole covers and kids with braces that accumulate on the bottom of your scoot.
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Post by ericalm »

scootergator wrote:Eric,

Isnt there a traffic control expert on MV. He builds the stop light systems, hed be the one to ask.
Maybe. I seem to recall reading something by someone who worked on the systems but I don't remember if it was on MV.

I've talked to some electrical engineers about it. All agree that inductive loops cannot detect magnetism.
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Post by TVB »

charlie55 wrote:The problem with neodymium and other rare earth magnets is that you have to stop every so often to remove the manhole covers and kids with braces that accumulate on the bottom of your scoot.
I have to stop every hundred miles for gas anyway, so it really isn't a problem.
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Post by rsrider »

I wait one cycle of the lights, and then when it is safe to do so, I run the red.
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

rsrider wrote:I wait one cycle of the lights, and then when it is safe to do so, I run the red.
Me too, if I didn't I'd still be on my scooter at the light by my house trying to get to work :) That damn light never changes for my scooter.
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Post by BootScootin'FireFighter »

rsrider wrote:I wait one cycle of the lights, and then when it is safe to do so, I run the red.
Ditto on that. Sometimes at night I don't even wait that long. If I end up "passing through" one of DC's friendlier neighborhoods, the last thing I want is to get jacked up at a red light. It's a California roll.
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Post by bluezurich »

How on earth can the Knight Light and other traffic trigger rare earth magnet sellers make such claims?
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

bluezurich wrote:How on earth can the Knight Light and other traffic trigger rare earth magnet sellers make such claims?
good question. All I can say is that from my expereince you would be better off strapping a large wrench to the bottom of your scooter :lol:
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Post by iMoses »

If it doesn't trigger and I am sitting through a second cycle of lights (for everyone else) I look around carefully... first for the PoPo, secondly for vehicles that may squish me... then I carefully but quickly run the light...
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Post by ericalm »

iMoses wrote:If it doesn't trigger and I am sitting through a second cycle of lights (for everyone else) I look around carefully... first for the PoPo, secondly for vehicles that may squish me... then I carefully but quickly run the light...
This is legal in some states.
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Post by KABarash »

ericalm wrote:
iMoses wrote:If it doesn't trigger and I am sitting through a second cycle of lights (for everyone else) I look around carefully... first for the PoPo, secondly for vehicles that may squish me... then I carefully but quickly run the light...
This is legal in some states.
Does anyone know if it is in Pa.? Or where I can go to find out?
There's several lights I pass especially late in the evening that I don't/can't trip....
My son says it's because I don't have enough ass in my ass... :rofl:
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Post by Lostmycage »

BootScootin'FireFighter wrote:
rsrider wrote:I wait one cycle of the lights, and then when it is safe to do so, I run the red.
Ditto on that. Sometimes at night I don't even wait that long. If I end up "passing through" one of DC's friendlier neighborhoods, the last thing I want is to get jacked up at a red light. It's a California roll.
I tend to do the same thing, but I have one question: if the green light sensor doesn't pick you up, does the red light camera? I know DC is plagued with those things and they're talking about bringing them further south into VA.
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Post by ericalm »

KABarash wrote:
ericalm wrote:
iMoses wrote:If it doesn't trigger and I am sitting through a second cycle of lights (for everyone else) I look around carefully... first for the PoPo, secondly for vehicles that may squish me... then I carefully but quickly run the light...
This is legal in some states.
Does anyone know if it is in Pa.? Or where I can go to find out?
There's several lights I pass especially late in the evening that I don't/can't trip....
My son says it's because I don't have enough ass in my ass... :rofl:
I have too much ass in my ass. Maybe that's why I don;t have this problem too often. :)

Here are the states I can confirm (via Google) have laws allowing MCs to run a red light (with caution) if it doesn't change after a cycle:
North Carolina
Wisconsin
Idaho
Arkansas
Tennessee
Minnesota
Missouri

Oklahoma has a pending bill that would allow this.

In California, all new light sensors installed (since 2008, I think) are required to be sensitive enough to detect bikes and motorcycles.
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Post by Vic »

KABarash wrote: There's several lights I pass especially late in the evening that I don't/can't trip....
My son says it's because I don't have enough ass in my ass... :rofl:
I have enough as for me and the next 2 folks that happen along and there are 4 lights that plague my existence. I know that with my luck I would end up running the light just as a cop comes over the hill and I woudl get slapped with a great big fine so I turn right, then go to the next available driveway or parking lot and turn around and go through the light that way. :evil:

It is annoying as hell, but I HAVE already called and complained about it and nothing is done about it. Two of the lights that are like this are located on corners that police and fire stations are positioned. :roll:

I have also been known to hop off of my scooter, run over to the crosswalk button, push it, then run back to my scooter, start it up and go when the light turns. Dangerous and really dumb that I have to do this, but I don't know what else to do. Unfortunately, not all of the lights that are a problem are equipped with crosswalks and crosswalk buttons.

The one that burns me up the most is the one that is located within about 100 yards of a special crosswalk that my tax dollars paid big bucks for that is specifically for the bike path to cross the road, it senses bicycles (animals, blowing leaves and debris... :roll: ) and then turns a light on to stop cars on the road when a bike is approaching from either direction. I have to stop for leaves blowing around in front of the sensor camera thingie but then I can't get through the very next intersection because the township won't pay someone to go out there and calibrate the sensor at the traffic intersection.

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Post by Nickie McNichols »

My chi-scoot will trip 99% of them around here. I just stop with the engine placed over the part of the sensor that trees all together for maximum sensing. Works for me.
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Post by siobhan »

If there are regular lights that you use that you know you cannot trip, call the local traffic engineering department. They can alter the sensitivity.

There's one light that I cannot trip on my commute home. I called the Providence Traffic Engineering department, got a great guy on the phone who also rides, and they came out within the week and dialed up the sensitivity. Don't suffer when something can actually be done about it if you make some noise.
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Post by illnoise »

jasondavis48108 wrote: btw depending on how good your city is about it, you can call your local traffic folks and tell them that you can't trip the light. Sometimes they will paint marks on the road to help you find the sensor (especialy helpful if the cut marks have been covered when the road was resurfaced) and they can increase the sensitivity of the sensor so that it can be tripped by scooters. Technically the sensors are suppossed to be set so that they are sensitive enough to be tripped by a bicycle but I find myself stuck at lights on either my bicycle or scooter quite often :(
The best advice here so far… exactly what I've read in posts on other boards from people that work for city transportation depts. If you're not triggering it, it's not set right, and they want to know about it. Whether or not they do something about it is another story, but if you call your local DOT a few times about it and it's not fixed, you could be a jerk and call again and play the "I wonder if the local paper would be interested to know that you're putting bicyclist and motorcyclists at risk?" card.
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Post by pdxrita »

illnoise wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote: btw depending on how good your city is about it, you can call your local traffic folks and tell them that you can't trip the light. Sometimes they will paint marks on the road to help you find the sensor (especialy helpful if the cut marks have been covered when the road was resurfaced) and they can increase the sensitivity of the sensor so that it can be tripped by scooters. Technically the sensors are suppossed to be set so that they are sensitive enough to be tripped by a bicycle but I find myself stuck at lights on either my bicycle or scooter quite often :(
The best advice here so far… exactly what I've read in posts on other boards from people that work for city transportation depts. If you're not triggering it, it's not set right, and they want to know about it. Whether or not they do something about it is another story, but if you call your local DOT a few times about it and it's not fixed, you could be a jerk and call again and play the "I wonder if the local paper would be interested to know that you're putting bicyclist and motorcyclists at risk?" card.
So I decided to give this a shot after reading this thread a couple of weeks ago. I went on to the city's website, drilled down to the transportation department contacts and found the one that applied to the situation. I sent her an e-mail and, much to my amazement, she had it looked at. She told me where the detector is at the intersection in question (8 feet back from the line, no wonder I've never hit it) and she's going to have a bike spot painted on to it when it stops raining. I had mentioned that bikes get stuck there too and suggested the bike spot. Nothing gets more attention in Portland than mentioning that it's an issue for bikes. :wink:
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