[NSR] Winter-worthy motorcycle
Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff
[NSR] Winter-worthy motorcycle
Elio Motors, the company that's developing this, calls it a "car", but it'll be classified as a three-wheeled motorcycle. With front and back bucket seats. And fully enclosed. Which just might make it perfect for my winter transportation needs when the current cage becomes too costly to keep fixing (i.e. the next time it needs something more than an oil change). The only catch is that I'd probably have to get my motorcycle endorsement.
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It's supposed to get 49/84mpg city/highway, with a top speed over 100mph. And the price tag of $6,800 is pretty attractive.
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It's supposed to get 49/84mpg city/highway, with a top speed over 100mph. And the price tag of $6,800 is pretty attractive.
- BeefSupreme
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Wow! That's a lot cheaper than I would expect. I wonder if you would be allowed to drive it in the carpool lanes down here in So. Cal? That would be a huge selling point in addition to the great MPG.
I hope you can see the two front wheels from inside, or I might be tempted to squeeze through spaces that are too narrow otherwise
I hope you can see the two front wheels from inside, or I might be tempted to squeeze through spaces that are too narrow otherwise
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I did a lot of research on the Elio and IF it is ever produced and IF it is
ever sold at the suggested price I would buy one. One prototype does not a production line make and so far as I can tell the company is under funded
at this point. Love the design, reminds my of the old 3 wheeler Morgan sports
car which is still in production but not cheap.
ever sold at the suggested price I would buy one. One prototype does not a production line make and so far as I can tell the company is under funded
at this point. Love the design, reminds my of the old 3 wheeler Morgan sports
car which is still in production but not cheap.
- Rob
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I guess I'm in the minority here, but I just don't get it. Isn't this just a cage/Smart Car with 3 wheels?
I understand the allure of the potential inexpensive price tag and fuel economy, but what about the fun factor? Looks to be too claustrophobic for me, but then again, I'm taller than most.
As for the winter months, this would definitely offer some protection against the cold temps, but I'm guessing it wouldn't handle snow and icy conditions very well.
But, to each their own. Most folks don't understand why I enjoy riding ATVs.
Rob
I understand the allure of the potential inexpensive price tag and fuel economy, but what about the fun factor? Looks to be too claustrophobic for me, but then again, I'm taller than most.
As for the winter months, this would definitely offer some protection against the cold temps, but I'm guessing it wouldn't handle snow and icy conditions very well.
But, to each their own. Most folks don't understand why I enjoy riding ATVs.
Rob
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- Steven Wright
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Wel, they could offer a convertable model also. The original Morgan had a Vtwin motorcycle motor on the front. The advantage for the Eleo would be
for those who need a trike due to aging legs (like me). While I would not mind having one if they ever make one i have to say that when you start
researching the item you will find that it is just a copy basically of several
others that never made it into production. I mght yet get an ATV to ride here
on my place, would save the knees a little extra work.
for those who need a trike due to aging legs (like me). While I would not mind having one if they ever make one i have to say that when you start
researching the item you will find that it is just a copy basically of several
others that never made it into production. I mght yet get an ATV to ride here
on my place, would save the knees a little extra work.
Probably not, for safety reasons. Most modern automobile designs count on the roof as part of their infrastructure, and lose a lot of their integrity when you cut the roof off. That's part of why you see so few new models offered as convertibles: they wouldn't meet safety standards. Like other subcompact cars, this design depends especially on the internal strength of the overall frame to offer protection to the driver.Wolfhound wrote:Wel, they could offer a convertable model also.
What appeals to me about it isn't how it compares to a scooter (which I would keep), but how it compares to other cages: it definitely looks more fun than my Hyundai Accent (which I wouldn't keep).Rob wrote:I guess I'm in the minority here, but I just don't get it. Isn't this just a cage/Smart Car with 3 wheels?
I understand the allure of the potential inexpensive price tag and fuel economy, but what about the fun factor? ...
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Did a little more research and it is stated that it is a front wheel drive
but I cant find out what engine or tranny it uses. Green Car Reports.com
reports that it is not clear as to what engine and transmission the car uses.
Does any body here know the answer?? Do we have to wait till 2014 when
production will supposedly begin?
but I cant find out what engine or tranny it uses. Green Car Reports.com
reports that it is not clear as to what engine and transmission the car uses.
Does any body here know the answer?? Do we have to wait till 2014 when
production will supposedly begin?
- Dooglas
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Indeed. it sounds like IAV is very innovative and into very important and creative stuff (according to them), they just can't tell you what . I think that is probably the bottom line with Elio. Innovative thinking going on, but uncertain whether anything will ever see the marketplace. One thing I'd say you can be sure of. Product will not see the US market at anywhere near the price mentioned. Look at the price of a quality scooter. Look at the price of a Can-Am. Look at the price of a Fiat 500 or a Smart. Look at the price of a Morgan 3. Now figure out where the Elio might fit on that gradient.TVB wrote:Elio's web site says that the engine is a custom design by IAV, which doesn't answer your question but might explain why there's no answer.
- Tocsik
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If there's any way they can bring this to market near the price they have spec'd, I think they will do very well.
As fun and incredible as the Morgan 3 is, I would prefer the Elio a greater percent of the time. Like the video says, it's fun and functional
The front wheel drive and enclosed cab have greater appeal to me; even though I would love an open-top version. I mean, c'mon, how can you have a car/motorcycle like this and not be able to at least roll the top back like a Cabriolet? SmartCar has done that.
Maybe if the company actually gets going with this car, they will come out with a "sport" version soon after. Sort of like the Abarth Fiat 500.
As fun and incredible as the Morgan 3 is, I would prefer the Elio a greater percent of the time. Like the video says, it's fun and functional
The front wheel drive and enclosed cab have greater appeal to me; even though I would love an open-top version. I mean, c'mon, how can you have a car/motorcycle like this and not be able to at least roll the top back like a Cabriolet? SmartCar has done that.
Maybe if the company actually gets going with this car, they will come out with a "sport" version soon after. Sort of like the Abarth Fiat 500.
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What Dooglas said!!!1 I dont believe that you can produce this rig in the
USA and market it at that price and still make a profit. Materials and labor
costs will kill it. This is why no one is making scooter here in America. No
way can they compete with the foreign manufacturers and stay afloat. Interesting some what new approach to an old design. Only time will tell.
USA and market it at that price and still make a profit. Materials and labor
costs will kill it. This is why no one is making scooter here in America. No
way can they compete with the foreign manufacturers and stay afloat. Interesting some what new approach to an old design. Only time will tell.
The size of the US scooter market is part of the reason no one's making them here: it's difficult to take advantage of economies of scale. I don't know if they're right, but Elio's anticipating a fairly large mainstream market for this, which would help reduce the per-unit cost. As you say, time will tell.
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Yes, TVB, but I don't think that they will develop more than a niche market
and if that is the case then I don't think that they can survive on that market share. There is a lot more than just manufacturing the product involved.
Dealerships will have to be developed and those dealerships will have to provide service and parts departments.
If I were a younger man and they did come out with one at that price I
would buy one drive it very little, garage it and wait for the company to fail.
Given enough years and it would become a sought after collectors item.
Also, if they do produce one I might buy it for the novelty and for winter use
when my scoots would not be practical.
and if that is the case then I don't think that they can survive on that market share. There is a lot more than just manufacturing the product involved.
Dealerships will have to be developed and those dealerships will have to provide service and parts departments.
If I were a younger man and they did come out with one at that price I
would buy one drive it very little, garage it and wait for the company to fail.
Given enough years and it would become a sought after collectors item.
Also, if they do produce one I might buy it for the novelty and for winter use
when my scoots would not be practical.
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Not intended as a political question, just seeking clarification:
Does Elio and/or any other company/person who wants to produce vehicles have to have/use unionized employees?
I ask because in researching one of the points made by 'opposition' press is that the price is too low, that it will have to be more expensive, too much more for it to really be viable - but it seems to me that if they can get into a place which has a workforce that needs employment, and the employees are not Union, then that could really help hold costs - and therefore retail prices - down. Why?
According to this website, an employer will pay over $70/hour per UAW employee, which is significantly more than what a non-Union employee who was still paid well would cost them, and that was in nearly 5 years ago in 2008 - though given the economy I doubt it has had room to rise much. Also according to the above article, labor costs account for about 10% of the production costs of a vehicle.
So, for easy math (because that's all I can do ) say a small car actually costs about $14K to produce (see note at bottom of post), and 10% of that production cost is Labor, that's $1400, which divided by $70/hr comes to about 20 hours of labor. Though there are less materials used, I would expect that the Elio would have about the same amount of labor required in the build process as a slightly wider car with an extra wheel.
If your employees as non-Union only cost $35/hr (approx $15-20/hr + taxes + benefits), that's $700 less you'd need/have to charge per unit, all other things being equal - or about 10% of the expected Elio Retail price. In short, a not inconsiderable amount of money, both to those of us considering buying, as well as to the company which will have to produce them.
All of the above is to point out that at the projected/promotional price point of $6,800 Retail, labor costs could easily make or break the financial viability of the Elio when coming into actual production. If they have to have UAW employees, every hour of labor in production is a bit over 1% of the retail price. Wow! If they can do it non-Unionized, labor is half that, or maybe even less, and that would go a long way towards explaining such a low price point, and make me more optimistic about the Elio concept actually seeing the light of a retail day...
Anyway, a very interesting vehicle! Though an open roof would be desirable, being able to put both hands out either side window at the same time will make it feel a LOT more open than your typical cage. I've been looking at it trying to figure out how hard it would be to configure for sleeping - or: a teensy tiny slab-compatible RV with hella mileage at a low price...
(Note about labor costs - I read that the average new car in the US is around $31K retail, so these numbers are likely higher - by a large margin - thus affecting Elio production much more than the above musings consider...)
Does Elio and/or any other company/person who wants to produce vehicles have to have/use unionized employees?
I ask because in researching one of the points made by 'opposition' press is that the price is too low, that it will have to be more expensive, too much more for it to really be viable - but it seems to me that if they can get into a place which has a workforce that needs employment, and the employees are not Union, then that could really help hold costs - and therefore retail prices - down. Why?
According to this website, an employer will pay over $70/hour per UAW employee, which is significantly more than what a non-Union employee who was still paid well would cost them, and that was in nearly 5 years ago in 2008 - though given the economy I doubt it has had room to rise much. Also according to the above article, labor costs account for about 10% of the production costs of a vehicle.
So, for easy math (because that's all I can do ) say a small car actually costs about $14K to produce (see note at bottom of post), and 10% of that production cost is Labor, that's $1400, which divided by $70/hr comes to about 20 hours of labor. Though there are less materials used, I would expect that the Elio would have about the same amount of labor required in the build process as a slightly wider car with an extra wheel.
If your employees as non-Union only cost $35/hr (approx $15-20/hr + taxes + benefits), that's $700 less you'd need/have to charge per unit, all other things being equal - or about 10% of the expected Elio Retail price. In short, a not inconsiderable amount of money, both to those of us considering buying, as well as to the company which will have to produce them.
All of the above is to point out that at the projected/promotional price point of $6,800 Retail, labor costs could easily make or break the financial viability of the Elio when coming into actual production. If they have to have UAW employees, every hour of labor in production is a bit over 1% of the retail price. Wow! If they can do it non-Unionized, labor is half that, or maybe even less, and that would go a long way towards explaining such a low price point, and make me more optimistic about the Elio concept actually seeing the light of a retail day...
Anyway, a very interesting vehicle! Though an open roof would be desirable, being able to put both hands out either side window at the same time will make it feel a LOT more open than your typical cage. I've been looking at it trying to figure out how hard it would be to configure for sleeping - or: a teensy tiny slab-compatible RV with hella mileage at a low price...
(Note about labor costs - I read that the average new car in the US is around $31K retail, so these numbers are likely higher - by a large margin - thus affecting Elio production much more than the above musings consider...)
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It's clearly a 1.0 3 cylinder geo/Suzuki in the pictures. 55hp. It uses geo gauges, motor, and shift lever. They are going to need more tech under the hood. I hear a lot of talk about a safety cage but the box frame looks crude. Modern cars are incredibly safe. Billions are spent making sure they absorb crash energy and transfer it around the passengers.Wolfhound wrote:Did a little more research and it is stated that it is a front wheel drive
but I cant find out what engine or tranny it uses. Green Car Reports.com
reports that it is not clear as to what engine and transmission the car uses.
Does any body here know the answer?? Do we have to wait till 2014 when
production will supposedly begin?
The production model is supposed to have a 70hp engine, so that may just be an off-the-shelf engine for prototyping purposes.lovemysan wrote:It's clearly a 1.0 3 cylinder geo/Suzuki in the pictures. 55hp. It uses geo gauges, motor, and shift lever. They are going to need more tech under the hood. I hear a lot of talk about a safety cage but the box frame looks crude. Modern cars are incredibly safe. Billions are spent making sure they absorb crash energy and transfer it around the passengers.
BTW, I used to have a car with one of those engines, so that's one more point toward me liking this.
Last edited by TVB on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Stitch
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Pfffff. Safety. I don't care if it gets a 1 star safety rating, it's still got more impact resistance than a scooter.lovemysan wrote:It's clearly a 1.0 3 cylinder geo/Suzuki in the pictures. 55hp. It uses geo gauges, motor, and shift lever. They are going to need more tech under the hood. I hear a lot of talk about a safety cage but the box frame looks crude. Modern cars are incredibly safe. Billions are spent making sure they absorb crash energy and transfer it around the passengers.Wolfhound wrote:Did a little more research and it is stated that it is a front wheel drive
but I cant find out what engine or tranny it uses. Green Car Reports.com
reports that it is not clear as to what engine and transmission the car uses.
Does any body here know the answer?? Do we have to wait till 2014 when
production will supposedly begin?
I'll just wear a helmet and a cup.
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- Dooglas
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Union shop. Non-union shop. Minimum wage shop. Whatever you prefer. I do not believe that vehicle will be sold on the US market for $6,800. If it happens, I guess I'll owe you all a beer. (BTW dumping on factories utilizing union employees seems to me like it is coming pretty close to a political argument that violates posting guidelines - just saying)TVB wrote:Short answer: I suspect that Elio is counting on operating their planned assembly plant in Louisiana as a non-union shop.CapnK wrote:Does Elio and/or any other company/person who wants to produce vehicles have to have/use unionized employees?
- CapnK
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Pardon me, but I did not "dump" on anyone, and in fact I was extremely careful in my chosen wording in order to *not* dump on _anyone's_ shop, whether union or non-union, nor to make the question I had political.Dooglas wrote:(BTW dumping on factories utilizing union employees seems to me like it is coming pretty close to a political argument that violates posting guidelines - just saying)
It took me over 30 minutes to write and edit that post, in an effort to make it as factual and non-political as possible. The figures cited came from a website article regarding claims from politicos regarding union labor costs, replacing/clarifying their claims with real data, giving what seems to me an honest accounting of costs involved. Facts, not politics, the way I would prefer it myself.
I am not familiar enough with Union rules, laws, or practices to know how or if unionization is required to be implemented by manufacturers under Federal law, but looking at facts it seems that if they have to use union labor, it will push the cost up. Enough to affect the viability of the product, I don't know.
I would like to see this vehicle on the market. At the price they are attempting to sell this vehicle, margins are going to be very slim. Any way they can cut costs will help them bring it to market.
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I thought your post was very well done CapnK. Whether or not someone is for or against unions, there is no argument that unionized labor costs more which in turn affects the profit margin / retail pricing of an item.
I too think that if they end up with Unionized labor, the $6,800 price tag would be difficult to make happen. I am interested to see how this all plays out.
I too think that if they end up with Unionized labor, the $6,800 price tag would be difficult to make happen. I am interested to see how this all plays out.
It is not required. There are laws requiring employers to allow their employees to organize (with exceptions and limitations), but there is no federal law requiring unions in any industry.CapnK wrote:I am not familiar enough with Union rules, laws, or practices to know how or if unionization is required to be implemented by manufacturers under Federal law,
The US automotive industry (including vehicle assembly and parts suppliers) was highly unionized in the mid-20th century, but that was due to employees choosing to form/join unions, and customers (including other businesses) choosing to buy only from union shops. I don't know the percentage, but today a large segment of automotive manufacturing in the US is now done in non-union shops; a non-Big-Three factory in the South (as this would be) is typically not unionized. I have my opinions as to whether this is a good development or not ... I'm just stating it here as a development.
- CapnK
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THANK YOU for that answer, Todd. Other than a grandfather who worked in a tire factory in Ohio many many moons ago, my family and most of the people I have known down South here work in jobs which don't have unions, so it is a topic somewhat foreign to me.TVB wrote:It is not required. There are laws requiring employers to allow their employees to organize (with exceptions and limitations), but there is no federal law requiring unions in any industry.CapnK wrote:I am not familiar enough with Union rules, laws, or practices to know how or if unionization is required to be implemented by manufacturers under Federal law,
The US automotive industry (including vehicle assembly and parts suppliers) was highly unionized in the mid-20th century, but that was due to employees choosing to form/join unions, and customers (including other businesses) choosing to buy only from union shops. I don't know the percentage, but today a large segment of automotive manufacturing in the US is now done in non-union shops; a non-Big-Three factory in the South (as this would be) is typically not unionized. I have my opinions as to whether this is a good development or not ... I'm just stating it here as a development.
I did read that the factory they are planning to use is an ex- of one of the "Big 3", so they should have a somewhat skilled employee base there at the least.
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- michelle_7728
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I was watching the videos on their website and they call the car in the video a mule (never heard that term before). They said it is what comes before a prototype. He said that the demo car in the video I was watching does have a Geo Metro engine in it, but that the production ones would not. I can't remember what engine, but I 'thought' it was a 1.3 liter or something like that.
Gonna have to go back and watch the videos again to verify that.
Anyhow, I sent the link to a co-worker who has a super long commute, and he was intrigued....I guess he's been following it for a while and he says that there's supposed to be one here in the Seattle area in the next few days for people to see. I asked him to let me know when and where, as I definitely want to go check it out.
The draws for me are that you can drive it in inclement weather and not worry about a wet scooter...or getting cold fingers, or getting heat stroke....and you can be in the carpool lane by yourself since it's a motorcycle. Not saying I don't like riding...I will certainly continue...but this gives good options.
And when the rear seat folds down, you can fit a dog or two back there (depending on how big the dog is of course). Bonus!
Gonna have to go back and watch the videos again to verify that.
Anyhow, I sent the link to a co-worker who has a super long commute, and he was intrigued....I guess he's been following it for a while and he says that there's supposed to be one here in the Seattle area in the next few days for people to see. I asked him to let me know when and where, as I definitely want to go check it out.
The draws for me are that you can drive it in inclement weather and not worry about a wet scooter...or getting cold fingers, or getting heat stroke....and you can be in the carpool lane by yourself since it's a motorcycle. Not saying I don't like riding...I will certainly continue...but this gives good options.
And when the rear seat folds down, you can fit a dog or two back there (depending on how big the dog is of course). Bonus!
Past bikes: 08' Genuine Buddy 125, '07 Yamaha Majesty 400, '07 Piaggio MP3 250, '08 Piaggio MP3 500, '08 Aprilia Scarabeo 500
Current bikes: Two '09 Genuine Buddy 125's
Current bikes: Two '09 Genuine Buddy 125's
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The Elio concept is hardly new. Others have tried but so far as I can tell have not succeeded. I like the idea and it looks like Elio is serious about manufacturing the unit but if they do it will remain a question as to how popular it will become. At the price they are quoting now and if it can be
marketed at that price and IF gas prices esculate based on mid eastern
political instability then it might really catch on. We as riders see it as a great
idea but riders are a small minority of the buying public. It will need cagers to
buy it to make it a sucessful venture.
Based on its size I would want mine painted bright orange before I would take it
on the freeways or interstate highways. If you think a Smart car looks bad after being hit by a semi just think what the Elio will look like. Insurance on the
Elio might be costly.
marketed at that price and IF gas prices esculate based on mid eastern
political instability then it might really catch on. We as riders see it as a great
idea but riders are a small minority of the buying public. It will need cagers to
buy it to make it a sucessful venture.
Based on its size I would want mine painted bright orange before I would take it
on the freeways or interstate highways. If you think a Smart car looks bad after being hit by a semi just think what the Elio will look like. Insurance on the
Elio might be costly.
They anticipated that.Wolfhound wrote:Based on its size I would want mine painted bright orange before I would take it on the freeways or interstate highways.
Compared to a motorcycle?If you think a Smart car looks bad after being hit by a semi just think what the Elio will look like. Insurance on the Elio might be costly.
For what it's worth, they're anticipating a 5-star safety rating from the NHTSA.
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Yep, that is the color I want!!!! As far as the NHTSA rating is
concerned 'anticipate' is the key word to this. It seems to be very well built
for safety design wise.IF the Elio becomes a fact in 2014 at the price they
expect to be able to market it at then I would be very interested in one
with an auto transmission. While the concept is not new they are doing a great job of improving on it. Time will tell
concerned 'anticipate' is the key word to this. It seems to be very well built
for safety design wise.IF the Elio becomes a fact in 2014 at the price they
expect to be able to market it at then I would be very interested in one
with an auto transmission. While the concept is not new they are doing a great job of improving on it. Time will tell
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Ive been following this, too. I'd love to have one for my short country road commute during the winter (and during really hot summer days). Just recently discussed it with my wife, and am tempted to drop the $100 non-refundable deposit to put my name on the list. I am absolutely certain they won't be able to meet the $6800 price point, especially since they are not using an off-the-shelf drivtrain, but even at $10K, I'd be interested.
I wonder if they understand how limited their appeal is. They may market is as a vehicle for the working poor, but the reality is it'll be a toy/commuter for people who don't have kids at home, and a third car for upper-middle class-types who want to park the SUV when gas prices go nuts.
The big question for me is if they even make it to production. With "green" car companies folding like crazy, and the spector of the Dale hanging over them, I don't give them great odds. Might still be willing to toss in a deposit for a place in line, though, and treat it as $100 worth of lotto tickets.
I wonder if they understand how limited their appeal is. They may market is as a vehicle for the working poor, but the reality is it'll be a toy/commuter for people who don't have kids at home, and a third car for upper-middle class-types who want to park the SUV when gas prices go nuts.
The big question for me is if they even make it to production. With "green" car companies folding like crazy, and the spector of the Dale hanging over them, I don't give them great odds. Might still be willing to toss in a deposit for a place in line, though, and treat it as $100 worth of lotto tickets.
- Syd
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- Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
- Location: Tempe
I'd really like to see the squashed, flattened, destroyed Smart Car accident photo. Off and on for years I've looked for a verified Smart Car crash photo that wasn't a crash test or a different model altogether.If you think a Smart car looks bad after being hit by a semi...
The two most commonly posted photos of terrible Smart Car crashes I've seen involve a VW and a Ford Escape. I'd really like to see how the NHTSA managed to get it all wrong.
Guess that touched a nerve.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
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- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:27 pm
- Location: Ball Ground, GA
Syd, I have seen videos of the Smart car being tested by running it into
barracades but I dont recall where they were, getting old, I guess. And some
where i remember seeing a pix of one caught between two 18 wheelers.
We have 2 or 3 in our area and running on our 2 lane state roads they
are not moving very fast. May be just the drivers in them. And they look
really small.
barracades but I dont recall where they were, getting old, I guess. And some
where i remember seeing a pix of one caught between two 18 wheelers.
We have 2 or 3 in our area and running on our 2 lane state roads they
are not moving very fast. May be just the drivers in them. And they look
really small.
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- Member
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 1:31 am
The infamous stuck between two 18 wheelers pic has been de-bunked. That one was a Ford Escape...Wolfhound wrote:Syd, I have seen videos of the Smart car being tested by running it into
barracades but I dont recall where they were, getting old, I guess. And some
where i remember seeing a pix of one caught between two 18 wheelers.
We have 2 or 3 in our area and running on our 2 lane state roads they
are not moving very fast. May be just the drivers in them. And they look
really small.
- charlie55
- Member
- Posts: 1924
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
- Location: New Jersey
One thing to keep in mind is that there's a possibility that this vehicle might not be approved for on-road use in all 50 states. NJ, in particular, has a list of manufacturers that it deems to be valid for motorcycles/scooters. If the WMA portion of your VIN isn't on the list, then you're sunk. As an example, those Kikker 3/4-scale bikes that came out a few years ago, cannot be registered or titled in NJ, even though they are accepted in other states. If I recall correctly, some states will even do a claw-back on vehicles that they originally allowed but have later been proved not to meet the state's requirements.
It pays to check with your state's DMV before plunking a deposit down on any vehicle manufactured by a relatively-unknown startup.
It pays to check with your state's DMV before plunking a deposit down on any vehicle manufactured by a relatively-unknown startup.