[NSR] but may still relate: Confessions of a Car Salesman

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teabow1
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[NSR] but may still relate: Confessions of a Car Salesman

Post by teabow1 »

This is not exactly scooter related but maybe it is.

This is an article from Edmunds entitled: " Confessions of a Car Salesman". It's an investigative piece that Edmunds did by hiring an undercover reporter who gets himself a job as a car salesman to learn what goes on behind the scenes. It's a good read!
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Post by illnoise »

I'd read that a while back while car shopping, it's a great story, but from what I've seen, a typical scooter-specific shop has very little in common with a car dealership. Margin is amazingly low on scooters (just a few hundred dollars in most cases) and most shops are family-owned and the owners are usually very personally involved in the shop (usually they're the person you're talking to on the floor). A scooter shop makes WAY more money on parts, service, and accessories than they do on vehicle sales, and if scooter salesmen are living on commissions, they're eating a lot of ramen noodles. The scooters are generally priced at MSRP plus tax, title, transportation costs, and dealer prep. Dealer prep is the only one of these expenses that isn't concrete, and that's usually just a minimal charge to recoup their service guy's time uncrating and setting up the scooter. Some dealers add accessories to jack up the margin a little, but otherwise, there's not much wiggle room on the price like there is at a car dealer where nothing is as it seems.

Maybe larger motorcycle shops (especially chains) would have more in common with a car dealer, but I've got many friends who run scooter shops and I've been to scooter shops all over the country and followed the industry, and one of the big complaints you hear from dealers is that customers come in with a chip on their shoulder, thinking they're being robbed from the get-go. There aren't any scooter dealers sitting on yachts in the Caribbean with millions in a Swiss bank account, (and certainly no scooter salespeople, ha) it's a tough life. Most good shops are run with a small crew of trusted employees/friends and part-timers as needed, not mercenary cutthroat salespeople and Glengarry Glen Ross managers. Most if not all of the really good dealers got into it because of a long love of scootering and a desire to make a living while doing what they love and hopefully popularizing scootering in america, knowing it would be a tough life most of the time. Anyone getting into scooter sales to get rich easy/fast doesn't last long. Scooter Superstores of America was run more along the lines of a big chain/big money dealership, and it did not end well, ha.
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Post by illnoise »

Also, since I had two cars totalled, I visited a lot of car dealers around over the last few years. IIRC the guy made this same point in the story, (I do remember his distinctions between domestic and foreign car salesmen being uncannily accurate) but there ARE good car dealers. I visited several places that were the total stereotype of slick BS. there's a godawful place near my house, I read their Yelp reviews for fun, they're just evil and screw everyone that goes in there. But there ARE car dealers that are easy to work with and if you go in and have done your research, they'll treat you with respect and not jack you around. I don't understand why college-educated intelligent people are so intimidated by a high-school dropout and a big stack of papers and all the "i need to go talk to my manager" crap, the buyer has ALL the power in the transaction, and if you do your research and know what you should be paying, then you should just walk out at the first sign of shenanigans.

I eventually found a dealer who treated us with total respect, was completely honest about the process, and got us in and out of the dealership with a new car in an hour and a half and no hard sell, with a fair price. Since then, I've found out they outsell other dealers of the same make in the area 2-1, even though they've got 3-4 salespeople to the other guys' 10. I can't imagine why other dealers can't see that and cut the BS.
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Post by teabow1 »

The journalist, Chandler Phillips, goes to a high-sales high-pressure dealership to be a salesperson and also to a no-haggle dealership to be one.

All in all, the conclusions of Phillips is that the car salesperson isn't really the one to blame for the bad image that car dealership has. In fact, he says most car salespeople don't really make much money and only very few of them do. Pressure from the sales manager and owners of the dealership is what drives car salespeople to the high-pressure tactics.

He describes the no-haggle dealership as one where customers are generally better respected and better treated but you also don't make much money. For a whole week, he sells one car, for instance. In the other place, a high-pressure place, many different tactics are used to manipulate customers. You do end up getting more cars sold that way and make a bit more money. What Phillips is trying to illustrate here is that it's a catch-22. You work at a no-haggle dealership and yeah customers are better treated but you don't make enough money. You work at a high-pressure place and customers are more manipulated but you do make a little more money.

He also paints the picture that car salespeople, more often than not, are people in transition from one point in their lives to another. In other words, the job is often a transitory one.

Phillips does a good job of painting a very nuanced picture of the car salesperson, neither vindicating their tactics nor vilifying them. Although one might be tempted to begin the article with the mindset that we're here to discover how ruthless car salespeople are, the truth of the matter is a lot more complicated than that.

And as a social scientist, I've seen this over and over again where we might imagine a socio-cultural situation to be one way but when we really dig deeper and try to understand what's going on, it's a LOT MORE complicated than what we initially though.
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Post by teabow1 »

Generally I think the best pieces of investigative journalism (and much of certain types of social science writings) are those that leave us with a nuanced picture of reality, and help us see the greys and murky pictures of the situation.

Human beings often like to conceptualise things in black and white terms. E.g., car salespeople are ruthless. Investigative journalism and many social science writings by painting a complicated picture helps the reader come to realise how difficult it is to be totalising (i.e., one thing is either totally right or totally wrong).
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Post by neotrotsky »

We had an excellent experience with this when we bought both a new (to us) car AND a bike both last semester:

My wife has only bought one car in her life, and it was through a credit union and she knew zero about anything motorized (she had only had her driver's license one week before getting her first car). The credit union did pretty much everything for her, so when we needed to hunt for a replacement car at a dealership, she got to see the entire gamut of tricks and cons. We were held hostage at a Mitsubishi dealership for 6 hours while they played the "Let me ask my manager" game, and she fell for it thinking that with poor credit we were at the mercy of the dealer. We encountered the vulture sales tactic countless times, so much that by the 4th lot, my wife wouldn't get out of the car! The average used car salesmen are also egotistical douchebags on average, considering the high-pressure environment that comes with used car sales doesn't appeal to folks with an easygoing personality. No doubt they are under massive pressure to perform and to make as much profit as possible, but some of them take perverse pleasure treating buyers like children and assuming everyone is ignorant.

The biggest pain was actually finding a car WE wanted! We knew what we wanted, what models and what trim levels. If the dealership had one, we'd go further. If not, we would simply say thank you and be on our way... in theory. But, I can't tell you how many times we were offered an Escalade, Suburban or Range Rover when we told them we were interested in a 4 cylinder Vitara!! And, don't bother asking things like basic engine size, features or even model year to used car salesmen: They are as ignorant about automobiles as the average 13 year old girl.

Luckily we finally found a dealership that was straight up honest, understood that we knew what we were talking about and had a clear idea of what we wanted. They didn't try to offer us something that was not related or more expensive and knew that if they gave us what we wanted, we had no problems paying. In the end, we found a good deal on a Chevy Tracker (The US spec version of a Vitara) with almost everything we were looking for. And, the salesman was a nice broker with a no nonsense style that worked without being a douche.

In comparison, looking at motorbikes was an eye opener for my wife. Aside from the RideNow network of skeevy used-car like salesmen that have infected bike dealerships in the valley, most bike shops were no-pressure and very hands off. This was off-putting to my wife after dealing with the car fiasco, and she was flat-out confused. I tried to explain to her that when you go to manufacturer specific cycle shops, they assume that you already know WHAT you want, and their goal is to sell you a bike with as much accessories as you can leave with since that's their better source of commission. In the end, I was tempted by a vintage bike (while perhaps I should of gone for something far more modern) but most dealerships for cycles were a pleasure to deal with in comparison to buying a car
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Post by teabow1 »

One of the best ways to buy a car, I have found, is to buy from a particular car dealership. I've bought from this guy before. Basically, he goes to dealer only auctions and buys the car you want. He has his mechanic check it out before buying. He even shows you how much he had to pay for it at the dealer-only auction. Then, depending on the price of the car, he charges a fixed commission.

For example, I bought a one-year old car from him which he bought at the dealer-only auction for $8,000. For that, he charges a commission of $1,000 so the total price was $9,000. It was a Japanese car with power windows and locks and A/C. It was a steal!

I forget his schedule of commission but it's something like this:
• up to $10,000 he gets $1,000 commission
• from $10,001 to $20,000 he gets $2,000 commission
and on it goes.

He doesn't have a car show room because you decide on the type of car you want and he gets it for you. He also doesn't deliver. You basically have to go to his home (which is where he operates) and you get all the paperwork done and you get the car. He's even published a book on how to buy used cars. His name is Burke Leon, and he's in Los Angeles. I believe he still sells, although it's been over a decade since I used his services.

======

This sounds like an advertisement for him, but it isn't! I'm only a satisfied customer. It was the best way to buy a car, especially since brand new cars immediately depreciate when you buy them.

If there were a Burke Leon equivalent for the scooter world, I'd immediately jump on it.
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Post by teabow1 »

It's interesting to read the differences in how scooter/motorcycles are sold.

We have a local dealer here who specialises in Piaggio, Honda, Yamaha, etc. My experience with the salesperson there was rather negative. The salesperson wasn't interested in showing us more about the models we were interested in. He didn't show us something different but he was nonchalant about the questions I asked. Unfortunately, they may have the BV series of scooters that I'm interested in.

On the other hand, we have another local dealer here who specialises in Genuine, Kymco and a few others. They are a much smaller dealership and the salesperson there had been really attentive and helpful and even let me and my husband ride on a Buddy scooter. Unfortunately, I've now figured that I don't want a Buddy and am basically looking at the BV series! I much rather give my business to this dealer but they sell what I want! :-( I could buy my scooter gear from this dealership, I guess, but it also means I lose my chance to haggle. By buying a scooter, I think it allows me to haggle a bit with the price of gear.

Now, there is another dealership a bit over an hour away who does sell the BV series. I haven't been there but they are having a deal on the BV series. Besides the wrong timing (not purchasing until January/February) my other concern is that as a novice rider (will be when I get my motorcycle endorsement next month) I would be riding a scooter for an hour for the first time in order to get home! YIKES!
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Post by viney266 »

What has worked for me? Find a shop you like and thats honest( not always easy) and stick with them...

Car tires? same guys for 14 years
Gun shop? same 2 shops for over 20 years
Both these places get ALOT of business from myself and my friends. I have NEVER asked for a discount in either one, and I sure don't pay retail in them either. They give me the best deal they can and I give them the business.

I know this may sound "old school" with todays internet savvy world. But the service i get ( sometimes for free) way out weighs ANY discount you could find on the web....Just my 2 cents.
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Post by neotrotsky »

Ok, the quote function seemed to be cocked up, so I'll just indirectly quote:

There is a difference between buying from a broker (a dealership that buys the car you are looking for) and the car reseller that just keeps a pre-determined stock on hand. The Tracker we bought was through a broker who just happened to have the car we wanted on hand. But, brokers are great because you define up front what you are willing to pay, and they have more freedom to negotiate price with the customer without having to deal with hard line overheads. If the broker finds a better deal, both the customer and the broker wins. Granted, this isn't as turn-and-burn as many car lots, but the few brokers I've dealt with seem to be far more well adjusted:P
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Post by babblefish »

Posted by: Viney266

"What has worked for me? Find a shop you like and thats honest( not always easy) and stick with them...

Car tires? same guys for 14 years
Gun shop? same 2 shops for over 20 years
Both these places get ALOT of business from myself and my friends. I have NEVER asked for a discount in either one, and I sure don't pay retail in them either. They give me the best deal they can and I give them the business.

I know this may sound "old school" with todays internet savvy world. But the service i get ( sometimes for free) way out weighs ANY discount you could find on the web....Just my 2 cents."

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teabow1
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Post by teabow1 »

@neotrotsky, not sure if your reply was to me.

But just to clarify:

Burke Leon, the car dealer I was talking about is not a broker. He keeps no car stocks on hand. He has no show room. Via phone or email you discuss with him what you want. You can go as specific or as unspecific as you want and he finds it. The more specific it is, the more difficult, of course because he only buys from dealer-only auctions. For me, I was more vague, telling him I wanted either a Japanese make, small compact car, with automatic transmission and less than $10,000 and low mileage. He found it!

You do have to pay cash up front, or you can find some loan programme. He has some on hand but he tells you you'll be able to find a better loan elsewhere.
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Post by teabow1 »

@ viney266, I'm with you.

Once I find a dealer or mechanic I like, I stick with it as long as the price is with in reason. I much prefer to spend my time elsewhere (e.g., enjoying life!) rather than either haggling or constantly trying to find a better deal.
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Post by paige »

Ask them if they will deliver. My first scooter purchase, they offered to deliver and gave me a 15 minute overview of how everything worked while sitting in my driveway. I had been wondering how I would get it home and it never occurred to me to ask them to bring it. They have trucks for servicing, so they also use them for delivery.

teabow1 wrote:It's interesting to read the differences in how scooter/motorcycles are sold.

We have a local dealer here who specialises in Piaggio, Honda, Yamaha, etc. My experience with the salesperson there was rather negative. The salesperson wasn't interested in showing us more about the models we were interested in. He didn't show us something different but he was nonchalant about the questions I asked. Unfortunately, they may have the BV series of scooters that I'm interested in.

On the other hand, we have another local dealer here who specialises in Genuine, Kymco and a few others. They are a much smaller dealership and the salesperson there had been really attentive and helpful and even let me and my husband ride on a Buddy scooter. Unfortunately, I've now figured that I don't want a Buddy and am basically looking at the BV series! I much rather give my business to this dealer but they sell what I want! :-( I could buy my scooter gear from this dealership, I guess, but it also means I lose my chance to haggle. By buying a scooter, I think it allows me to haggle a bit with the price of gear.

Now, there is another dealership a bit over an hour away who does sell the BV series. I haven't been there but they are having a deal on the BV series. Besides the wrong timing (not purchasing until January/February) my other concern is that as a novice rider (will be when I get my motorcycle endorsement next month) I would be riding a scooter for an hour for the first time in order to get home! YIKES!
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Post by teabow1 »

paige wrote:Ask them if they will deliver. My first scooter purchase, they offered to deliver and gave me a 15 minute overview of how everything worked while sitting in my driveway. I had been wondering how I would get it home and it never occurred to me to ask them to bring it. They have trucks for servicing, so they also use them for delivery.
AH! That's an idea! I never knew they'd have trucks. Thanks.
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Post by JHScoot »

i think know how much you want to spend and make an offer. do all the homework, take your time. take days even for a car, as a significant amount can be saved

don't be confused by payment plans, financing, options, add ons. know how much you have to spend, make a fair or even low offer, and walk away if you know you can do better. if you only think you can do better and have truly done your research, you are most likely about to start to nickel and dime your way out of a good deal. so know when to say "when." and know your credit score and walk in with an approved loan offer from a respected lender. let the dealer compete for your financing. if you have the credit to do so. but know your score and if possible know what interest rate you qualify for by getting tentative / pre approval before going to the dealer, whatever the case

scooters? low profit margin on the scooter itself. knock a few hundred bucks off and all other things considered you may have just taken all dealer profit away from a $2,000 scoot. again, buy what you can afford. if you can't afford what you want, fill the space with what you need. or at least can justify if buying your 7th scooter or something

scoots are pretty cheap, anyway. no need the rider to be even cheaper then the scoot itself!

although mine was CHEAP i must confess :P :lol:
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