Buddy Kick Kill Switch issue?

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PhillyKick
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Buddy Kick Kill Switch issue?

Post by PhillyKick »

Because this got super long super fast, here's the TL;DR: Buddy Kick owners, stop using the kill switch (according to the dealer)

Okay, I know this is a new model and that there are only 3 or 4 people on here with Kick's, but I'm having an issue, and the dealer said other Kick owners have had similar issues (Plus, PGO probably uses the same switch on their other scoots? Maybe?).

When I bought the scooter, the salesman (who also rides and may possibly frequent this forum since he told me about it) said you could use either the kill switch or the key to turn the scoot off, as long as the key got turned off too (since it, obviously, controls the ignition, computer, turns the lights on, fuel pump, etc. And because who would leave their key in their scoot???). Out of habit/laziness/misguided wisdom, I have been using the kill switch, then the key a few seconds later once my hand gets down to it (so maybe 5 seconds of electrical usage without the engine running to recharge.

Monday leaving the gym, little Lola did not want to start. It clicked when I hit the button, i kept hitting the button until it half-kicked over, turned the key off, let it sit for a minute, re-keyed, clicked the button a few more times until it finally kicked the whole way over (resting voltage 12.3, cranking 11.8, so a bit low for sure). The gym is a twenty minute ride from my house, and I took a slightly longer route to give it some extra recharge time. (nearly all our trips are 10+ minutes, usually 15-20)

Suffice to say, it continued to act up, and stranded my roommate up at her college (resting voltage 12.4). When I went to rescue her, I only pressed the button four times and it fired right up. It's been acting up since then, even with longer rides.

Took it to the dealer today, and they (different salesman) said there have been other kick owners with a similar issue, and that it may be related to "leaving the kill switch in the off position" causing some sort of electrical drain.

I'm not saying they're wrong, it's their business to know scooters (and they work with Genuine HQ, etc), but that makes literally no sense, as the switch should be wired in series with the key, and would only add a second opening in the circuit, unless it was designed wrong.

I have since stopped using the kill switch, and took it on a 90 minute ride to recharge (resting voltage when I got home 12.7, running voltage at all points in time was 13.7 to 13.9).


Can anyone make sense of this for me? Yes, I will be investing in a trickle charger asap.
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babblefish
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Post by babblefish »

In the four decades or so of riding, I've only used the kill switch on a bike maybe a dozen times. On my scooters, I never use it because there's no point in doing so; just turn the key off and the engine shuts off. You're going to do that anyway to pull key out, so why go through two steps to shut off the engine?
As far as the kill switch draining the battery when left in the "off" position, I'm not sure of the reason why. Looked at the schematic, but couldn't find a reason for it there either. Strange one, this is.
Last edited by babblefish on Wed May 10, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PhillyKick
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Post by PhillyKick »

Thanks Babblefish. Yeah, I've now switched (hehe) to key-off-only, but I still want to get to the bottom of it. Googling proper procedure came up with dozens of forums full of people arguing one versus the other, with equally good points to both sides.

The only thing I can think of is maybe the switch being off physically manipulates another wire/contact by accident, something that wouldn't show on a diagram? And even that fails the logic test; this scoot sat for two weeks, non-operational, kill switch on kill, in the dead of winter, and fired up immediately in 25 degree weather. If the switch was draining juice it should've been deader than a doornail after all that time.
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Syd
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Post by Syd »

I think you just have a bad battery. Has it been starting ok since you switched?
Last edited by Syd on Thu May 11, 2017 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PhillyKick
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Post by PhillyKick »

I only started it once since then, as I left the dealer before my big recharge-ride. It took a few presses to start, as it's been doing. I sure hope batteries are warranty parts, if that's the case.

I'll be riding it tomorrow, I'll report back with any updates.
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Syd
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Post by Syd »

PhillyKick wrote:I only started it once since then, as I left the dealer before my big recharge-ride. It took a few presses to start, as it's been doing. I sure hope batteries are warranty parts, if that's the case.

I'll be riding it tomorrow, I'll report back with any updates.
Usuallynba5teries are not covered under warranties. Batteries are like tires and brakes. Consumables.

But if you bought your Kick very recently you may be able to talk your dealer into it.
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giddyup98
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Post by giddyup98 »

I have the identical issue with my wife's 2013 Kymco Like 200i. Brought it back to the dealer under warranty and he said it had something to do with the bike's ECU and to just not use the kill switch. I was a little peeved at his response but what else could I do? As long as she never uses the kill switch when shutting down her bike, it's just fine.
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Dooglas
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Post by Dooglas »

Sounds to me like you are having a problem with your battery, based on the numbers you posted. Probably the short trips are never bringing it back to full charge, in which case a battery tender is a good idea. Possibly your battery has lost some of its capacity. The original battery in our Buddy died after two years, we replaced it with a higher capacity battery which is now in its 5th year. As far as your kill switch, I suspect it is identical to the switch in the Buddy and other PGO's as you also comment. Use it however you choose - though I would suggest you lube it with dielectric grease.
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Re: Buddy Kick Kill Switch issue?

Post by JettaKnight »

PhillyKick wrote:Monday leaving the gym, little Lola did not want to start. It clicked when I hit the button, i kept hitting the button until it half-kicked over, turned the key off, let it sit for a minute, re-keyed, clicked the button a few more times until it finally kicked the whole way over (resting voltage 12.3, cranking 11.8, so a bit low for sure). The gym is a twenty minute ride from my house, and I took a slightly longer route to give it some extra recharge time. (nearly all our trips are 10+ minutes, usually 15-20)
OK, let's discuss terminology.

"Turning over" or "kicked over" means the crackshaft is rotating, i.e. the piston is moving back and forth. Rrrrrrrrrr.

If that's what you mean, then you pressed the starter and got, "rrr" and it stopped even though you're holding the button. Usually this is because the piston is going on it's compression stroke and the starter / flywheel doesn't have enough torque and rotational momentum to overcome the resistance of the compressed air in the chamber.

Maybe that's what you mean, but a lot of post read, "it won't turn over" when they should say, "it won't start."
I'm not saying they're wrong, it's their business to know scooters (and they work with Genuine HQ, etc), but that makes literally no sense, as the switch should be wired in series with the key, and would only add a second opening in the circuit, unless it was designed wrong.
I'm more than willing to call them wrong, in fact, unless I hear a reason, I'm calling "BS".
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babblefish
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Post by babblefish »

My understanding of what PhillyKick is saying is that his/her battery is going flat, possibly due to the kill switch being engaged. The only FI electrical schematic that I have is for a Buddy, but I couldn't see any concrete cause for this phenomenon. It's possible that the kill switch is grounding part of the ignition circuit which is causing a small drain on the battery that over time is causing it to go flat.
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Syd
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Post by Syd »

Syd wrote:
PhillyKick wrote:I only started it once since then, as I left the dealer before my big recharge-ride. It took a few presses to start, as it's been doing. I sure hope batteries are warranty parts, if that's the case.

I'll be riding it tomorrow, I'll report back with any updates.
Usuallynba5teries are not covered under warranties. Batteries are like tires and brakes. Consumables.

But if you bought your Kick very recently you may be able to talk your dealer into it.
Woah, what happened there?
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Post by babblefish »

Syd wrote:
Syd wrote:
PhillyKick wrote:I only started it once since then, as I left the dealer before my big recharge-ride. It took a few presses to start, as it's been doing. I sure hope batteries are warranty parts, if that's the case.

I'll be riding it tomorrow, I'll report back with any updates.
Usuallynba5teries are not covered under warranties. Batteries are like tires and brakes. Consumables.

But if you bought your Kick very recently you may be able to talk your dealer into it.
Woah, what happened there?
Someone didn't take their meds...:)
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Syd
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Post by Syd »

babblefish wrote:
Syd wrote:
Syd wrote:Usuallynba5teries are not covered under warranties. Batteries are like tires and brakes. Consumables.

But if you bought your Kick very recently you may be able to talk your dealer into it.
Woah, what happened there?
Someone didn't take their meds...:)
:lol:
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PhillyKick
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Post by PhillyKick »

I figured it was worth a shot to ask about the battery. Though, with it being this new, it probably wouldn't be totally dead yet, and a trickle charge/battery tender would improve the situation.

Started it twice yesterday, still starting hard. It went from 12.7 volts resting in run when I shut it off Wednesday at around 3pm to just 12.2 at 1pm yesterday. Outdoor temperature was the same, but maybe the battery was slightly warmer after my ride Wednesday, leading to a higher reading?


Any other kick owners out there reading this?
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PhillyKick
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Re: Buddy Kick Kill Switch issue?

Post by PhillyKick »

JettaKnight wrote: OK, let's discuss terminology.

"Turning over" or "kicked over" means the crackshaft is rotating, i.e. the piston is moving back and forth. Rrrrrrrrrr.

If that's what you mean, then you pressed the starter and got, "rrr" and it stopped even though you're holding the button. Usually this is because the piston is going on it's compression stroke and the starter / flywheel doesn't have enough torque and rotational momentum to overcome the resistance of the compressed air in the chamber.

Maybe that's what you mean, but a lot of post read, "it won't turn over" when they should say, "it won't start."
What I meant was, pressing the start button does nothing but make the starter solenoid click out. Every fifth or so button press, it will turn over, but not quickly or powerfully enough to fully start. Then it will go back to solenoid only for a few tries, and eventually crank long/hard/fast enough to start.
I'm not saying they're wrong, it's their business to know scooters (and they work with Genuine HQ, etc), but that makes literally no sense, as the switch should be wired in series with the key, and would only add a second opening in the circuit, unless it was designed wrong.
I'm more than willing to call them wrong, in fact, unless I hear a reason, I'm calling "BS".
Agreed. Unless the switch is designed wrong or is physically shorting something else out by being in the kill position, it makes zero sense. I didn't argue with the guy because I know how grumpy I get when I'm hungry, and even being right won't charge my battery.
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Post by iwannascoot »

If you have an amp meter you could determine what is going on when the kill switch is activated (kill position). See what the current is with the scoot running then turn off the key. Amps should go to zero. Start the scoot again and turn off with the kill switch, followed by turning off the key. Again the current should go to zero, or very close to zero. If there continues to be a current drain when using the kill switch, I believe that would indicate a problem.

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Post by Choppergirl »

Hello there, first timer here. Got a kick on order and am getting lots of great info from this forum as I eagerly await its arrival! 🙂 Question: I assume from this thread that the issue seems tied to the kill switch on the handle bars. Anyone know if the kill switch under the seat causes a similar issue? Would love to use it as an extra security measure, just don't want to walk into a problem by doing so...
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Post by jrsjr »

After the engine stops, just turn the Kill Switch back to the Un-Dead position.

All the Kill Switch does is ground the timing pulses input to the ECU. There may well be a design flaw that is causing current to flow through that circuit when the Kill Switch is engaged. You can have it both ways by the simple expedient of flipping the Kill Switch back after the motor stops running. That way you can still stop your motor using the switch the way your were taught at MSF, but no leakage current can flow through that circuit to ground.

P.S. If you are uncertain of the status of your battery, take it to a battery place and have them check it with a "Load Tester." That's the only way to know whether a battery has enough oomph to start a bike. Voltage tests simply aren't good enough.
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Post by cummingsjc »

Choppergirl wrote:Hello there, first timer here. Got a kick on order and am getting lots of great info from this forum as I eagerly await its arrival! 🙂 Question: I assume from this thread that the issue seems tied to the kill switch on the handle bars. Anyone know if the kill switch under the seat causes a similar issue? Would love to use it as an extra security measure, just don't want to walk into a problem by doing so...
I didn't know the Buddy Kick has a kill switch under the seat. Can you post a picture of it, please. I am very interested.
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Post by Yalzin »

I was under the impression that the Kill-Switch was meant to be used in emergencies (engine reving out of control, user needing to stop the motor for whatever reason quickly, etc.) and not meant to be used on a day-to-day basis?
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Post by babblefish »

Yalzin wrote:I was under the impression that the Kill-Switch was meant to be used in emergencies (engine reving out of control, user needing to stop the motor for whatever reason quickly, etc.) and not meant to be used on a day-to-day basis?
Yes, this is true and that's always the way I've seen it. But, some people like to wear suspenders with their belt and boil their bottled water before drinking, lol.
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Post by jrsjr »

Yalzin wrote:I was under the impression that the Kill-Switch was meant to be used in emergencies (engine reving out of control, user needing to stop the motor for whatever reason quickly, etc.) and not meant to be used on a day-to-day basis?
Yes, the Fed originally mandated the kill switches because of a tragic incident where a bike ran away with a rider because he had the throttle wide open and something got in the carb linkage mechanism and hung it wide open. That story was aired in front of a Congressional committee and in the press at the time. This was all a very long time ago. Somebody will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure nowadays the MSF course is teaching folks to stop the motor using the Kill Switch. I don't want to tell folks something that contradicts their MSF training.
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Post by PhillyKick »

For what it's worth, I've stopped using the kill switch and just use the key now, and haven't had an issue since.

The switch under the seat kills the fuel pump and is an anti-theft mechanism, or so I'm told.
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Post by Dooglas »

PhillyKick wrote:For what it's worth, I've stopped using the kill switch and just use the key now, and haven't had an issue since.
And for what it's worth, we use the kill switch every time we use our Buddy. That's been over 10 years now and it has never given us a problem.
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Post by JettaKnight »

Dooglas wrote:And for what it's worth, we use the kill switch every time we use our Buddy. That's been over 10 years now and it has never given us a problem.
Same here, however, the FI Buddy Kick is a little different, it seems.


I often kill the engine and coast into parking spots, letting go of the handles to operate the key isn't a good idea.

However, when I do that in the garage then leave the key on and walk away...


And for the, "in my days..." crowd, does MSF still teach FINE-C? :lol:
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Post by harmony101017 »

JettaKnight wrote:And for the, "in my days..." crowd, does MSF still teach FINE-C? :lol:
I just took the MSF course in PA and yes, they taught us FINE-C.
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