buddy 150, "out of gas", but still gas in tank?

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:37 am

hi all,

is it normal to still have what i assume is gas (my guess is about an inch deep) in the tank yet the scoot wont start due to being "out of gas"?

this happened first week after i bought the scoot used and thought the seller sold me a lemon

ended up pushing it to the nearest station, filled up and it was good

so is it supposed to always have some gas left in the tank when the engine stops from lack of gas?

btw the fuel gauge is nonfunctioning. the gas float does appear to be floating up with the gas

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:46 am

I offered a possible solution to the gas gauge problem in this thread: topic28773.html

Hopefully it will be of some help.
Before I finally fixed the problem with my Blur, I carried a wood stick around with me to use as a dipstick to check the gas level in the tank.

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:29 am

Sounds exactly what happened to us about a year or so ago.

My guess is you got 'bad gas' possibly with water in it or other. When you fill it up, note how much gas you are getting, if it is well under 1.3 gallons then you are not 'out' of gas - just out of good gas.

Go get Lucas gasoline treatment, use 1 tablespoon per fill up and off you go. This worked for us and we never have had that problem again. We still use Lucas on just about every tank to keep it clean.

lovemysan · Post by **lovemysan** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:36 pm

It's probably the filter on the petcock. Take the peacock out and clean the filter or just buy a whole new petcock for $20 ish. The new petcock will have the new stand filter

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:58 pm

When I replaced my petcock I could not get the old filter out. It was stuck tight and difficult to access through the gas tank. I was afraid to hit it too hard for fear it'd break it off.

ucandoit · Post by **ucandoit** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:59 pm

What exactly does Lucas gas treatment treat in gasoline?

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:42 pm

babblefish wrote:I offered a possible solution to the gas gauge problem in this thread: topic28773.html

Hopefully it will be of some help.
Before I finally fixed the problem with my Blur, I carried a wood stick around with me to use as a dipstick to check the gas level in the tank.

Appreciate the tip! I did see your post when I was looking into possible causes for nonfunctioning fuel gauge. Very helpful.

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:47 pm

lovemysan wrote:It's probably the filter on the petcock. Take the peacock out and clean the filter or just buy a whole new petcock for $20 ish. The new petcock will have the new stand filter

What does the petcock filter do?

edit: n/m, i get what you're saying.

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:54 pm

MYSCTR wrote:Sounds exactly what happened to us about a year or so ago.

My guess is you got 'bad gas' possibly with water in it or other. When you fill it up, note how much gas you are getting, if it is well under 1.3 gallons then you are not 'out' of gas - just out of good gas.

Go get Lucas gasoline treatment, use 1 tablespoon per fill up and off you go. This worked for us and we never have had that problem again. We still use Lucas on just about every tank to keep it clean.

So I'm really kicking myself for not remembering how much gas I was able to fill up after I ran out.

All I know is I had ridden about 60 miles when I ran out of gas that time. And I am getting about 60 mpg based on later fill ups.

Generally after riding about 50 miles, I am able to fill up about 0.8 gallons with the nozzle completely inside the tank and letting it auto shut-off.

But basically you're saying there definitely shouldn't be that much liquid in the tank when the scoot runs out of gas?

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:56 pm

Ideally I would just empty the tank and fix the gas gauge all at the same time, unfortunately I don't have the space to work on it right now.

So I was hoping to at least fix the leftover liquid issue, if it is an issue.

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:12 pm

The tank will not fully empty. If you look closely, you will see a small lip at the bottom of the petcock filter, so the gas cannot be emptied from the tank any lower than that lip.

To remover the filter, you first remove the petcock and then you can pull out the filter from the bottom. It might be in there pretty tight.

I would advise against running the scooter without the petcock filter. The filter catches any stuff that would be big enough to prevent the petcock valve from getting stuck open.

60 miles before running out of gas is a pretty short range for a Buddy. I always fill my tank beyond the pump auto shut-off. The auto shut-off may be ok for cars, but when all you got is a 1.3 or so gallon capacity I'd rather squeeze a bit more in. I do this on both my scoots without ill effect.

george54 · Post by **george54** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:08 pm

Well he does say he has the nozzle all the way in and just uses the auto shutoff which only gives about 0.8 gal. So that's why the short driving range. Sounds like there's plenty of room for more gas still without risking an overfill.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:18 pm

Yeah, there's a metal plate (a piece of sheet metal with one big hole and a couple smaller vent holes) an inch or two below the top of the filler neck, used to keep the gas nozzle nice and straight. If you pull back the nozzle and fill up to that plate, you'll get pretty good capacity _and_ the side benefit of a fairly consistent fillup, if you're tracking your MPGs.

Don't fill up any higher than that plate, because fuel may slosh above and run down the hoses of the emissions system, leading to hard/no starting.

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:23 pm

HowHH wrote:The tank will not fully empty. If you look closely, you will see a small lip at the bottom of the petcock filter, so the gas cannot be emptied from the tank any lower than that lip.

Do you know how deep that lip is?

I suppose next time I could use a mirror to get a better look inside the tank heh.

Couldn't find any images of the tank, and can't take it apart right now, so I didn't know whether it was the design of the tank that leaves some gas inaccessible.

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:37 pm

8008135 wrote:
MYSCTR wrote:Sounds exactly what happened to us about a year or so ago.

My guess is you got 'bad gas' possibly with water in it or other. When you fill it up, note how much gas you are getting, if it is well under 1.3 gallons then you are not 'out' of gas - just out of good gas.

Go get Lucas gasoline treatment, use 1 tablespoon per fill up and off you go. This worked for us and we never have had that problem again. We still use Lucas on just about every tank to keep it clean.
So I'm really kicking myself for not remembering how much gas I was able to fill up after I ran out.

All I know is I had ridden about 60 miles when I ran out of gas that time. And I am getting about 60 mpg based on later fill ups.

Generally after riding about 50 miles, I am able to fill up about 0.8 gallons with the nozzle completely inside the tank and letting it auto shut-off.

But basically you're saying there definitely shouldn't be that much liquid in the tank when the scoot runs out of gas?

If you are sure you are only getting 60 mpg on an international we would say there has to be a reason as that is low. That does not sound right at all.

Here is a breakdown of a handful of tanks from an International:

Note the numbers are (1) Fill Up, (2) Date (3) Miles (4) gallons (5) mpg

73 1/27/15 103.20 1.026 100.58
72 12/4/14 101.00 1.202 84.03
71 10/28/14 110.60 1.237 89.41
70 10/14/14 89.70 1.147 78.20
69 9/30/14 114.80 1.204 95.35
68 9/22/14 111.80 1.212 92.24
67 9/19/14 96.70 1.091 88.63
66 9/15/14 91.80 1.139 80.60
65 9/13/14 86.40 1.014 85.21
64 9/13/14 100.10 1.068 93.73
63 9/12/14 92.00 0.938 98.08

This is from Fuelly.com for my wife 2009 International. She doesn't count miles, just fills up when the fuel gage shows low. Her all time average was 88.4mpg for her last 7,000 miles.

Note - Lucas cleans the gas tank. engine and acts like a tune up in the bottle which helps keep it running smoothly as well as helping protect you from contaminants (like water) in the gas.

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:27 am

well I'm feeling a bit silly for not taking a closer look at the exposed area where clearly the fuel tank is visible

so i should be able to assume that the petcock tube that gas gets sucked into sticks a bit out from the bottom of the tank, and so whatever is below the tube will not be accessible?

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:56 am

@MYSCTR:

Yeah, I was a bit troubled at my low mpg in comparison with others.

The one person I asked at my local scooter dealer/service shop seemed to think 60 is about right. I've got a 1 mile, 300 ft elevation hill that I go up and down from work so that might eat into it a bit.

I do think I might be running a bit rich, although I'm not experiencing any really obvious symptoms.

The thing that makes me think so is before the engine is completely warmed up, if I open the throttle lightly and release, after the release the engine sputters and the revs seem to dip below normal idle. Although I'm not sure if that's caused by the auto-choke.

That, and I suppose the exhaust fumes do smell a bit heavy on the gas.

Welp, while I'm at it, I am also curious whether it's normal for Buddys to not decelerate smoothly at low speeds after a quick twist and release of the throttle? Like, open the throttle, feel the engine engage and start going faster, and release the throttle, and then the bike will jerk on deceleration, like the jerk from downshifting. Is that normal?

8008135 · Post by **8008135** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:50 am

Thanks to everyones suggestions, I was able to piece together how all this works, and figured out where to look as well as having gained some good tips for the future. I got a picture of the petcock and the lip user HowHH mentioned inside the tank. I'm such a noob.

On my original inspection, the sender unit float was obscuring my view of the petcock.

So now I can see that the tank is raised up around the petcock, so there's going to be some liquid left when "out of gas".

HowHH · Post by **HowHH** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:19 pm

No problems with being a noob. Just means that there is opportunity to learn. There are plenty of resources on this site, and you'll be doing your own wrenching and maintenance in no time!

60mpg does seem pretty low to me. Even with my having upjetted and riding with a heavy hand, I still routinely get in the high 80's. It can be tough to accurately determine mileage with such a small tank, however.

I'd recommend running a few tanks, but refilling to a visual reference rather than using the auto-shutoff on the gas pump. That ring you can see inside the filler neck (shows up well in your pic) is a good reference.

Regarding your jerking when rolling off the throttle, there is a certain amount of engine braking to be expected, but I wouldn't expect any significant "jerking". Maybe you are feeling the clutch disengaging?

Do you know anyone who is familiar with CVT scooters who could test ride and give you some feedback? If indeed abnormal, my thoughts are that the most likely culprits could be that the carb needs to properly adjusted (maybe cleaned as well), and perhaps a transmission issue, such as dirty/worn rollers or sliders or variator. You said you bought your Buddy used, so it may be worth checking with your shop as to what pre-sales prep they did.

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:50 pm

I have a lot of aftermarket parts (and miles!) on mine, ride the tar out of it, and still get at least 80 most of the time.

I'd say have it checked out. could just be you're in need of a new belt and rollers, maybe a light tuneup.