the "it's not if but WHEN" talk, from older folks

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
bimbom
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: nyc

the "it's not if but WHEN" talk, from older folks

Post by bimbom »

I'm in my mid twenties. I ride a Buddy 125 and am most likely going to get a small motorcycle (not sure yet).

I frequently hear older friends saying "it's not if you crash, but when..."

Obviously it's hard to get that out of my head. I drove a car for 5 years and had one minor accident which wasn't my fault. I like to think I'm a careful driver, especially on two wheels, where I try to anticipate every possible stupid thing someone could do when they are near me.

My neighbor used to ride (hes in his 50s) and said he would hop right on my scooter right now if he didn't have a kid. He said he used to ride motorcycles and had one accident where he broke a rib and messed up some skin. I can tell he would love to ride, but has acquired some kind of wisdom from experience, and is trying to tell me something. He had a friend who a while back was riding in NYC when a cab u-turned right into him, killing him instantly. His friend was speeding a bit.

Almost eerily the same day I was talking to a guy in his 60s who rides a Honda 1300cc motorcycle. He says sure he's scared and he thinks it's really dangerous but that he just couldn't afford his SUV anymore and this thing parks easy.

I hate to think I'm at the mercy of other drivers, even though I am. My favorite time to ride is early morning when nobody is out. I'd like to think my skill is the only thing between me being safe and me getting into an accident. And there is a freedom acquired during riding in those times that I haven't been able to acquire doing anything else.

Just some thoughts that have been bothering me recently.
tortoise
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 2:45 pm
Location: Nevada

Post by tortoise »

So in other words . . you are unwilling to accept the consequences, and want others to reinforce your denial.
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

You need to stop listening to these folks.

The guy who rides the Honda and says 'sure he's scared'? He dangerous.

The guy who would love to ride but has a family and so has some wisdom? He may be wise, but that doesn't mean he couldn't ride safely.

The others who say 'it's not if, but when'? Do whatever you must to get them to stop. Either nod appreciatively, or quietly agree, or whatever, but that's bullshit. For every one of them, there is someone who has ridden for decades without an accident.

And if you just can't get it out of your head, get a cheap, used, small MC, dump it and be done with it. Get it out of your system. Then pick it back up and ride with care.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
User avatar
skully93
Member
Posts: 2597
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:54 pm
Location: Denver CO

Post by skully93 »

it's really hard to quantify statistics.

From speaking to many others, the if/when is feasible. Some people never have an accident, most are minor. I've tipped over once due to low tire pressure on ice and once because someone cut me off so abruptly I had no choice but to dump it.

Both of these were pretty minor, and resulted in 1 small insurance claim, no real injuries.

Both could have been very bad of course, but they weren't. I mitigate my risk by wearing good gear 99.9% of the time (I have skipped my jacket at times due to new tattoos or heat, my choice). One was prior to my taking the MSF course (50cc) and had very few miles under my belt.

It doesn't mean I can't get hurt/killed, but statistically I don't think the risk is that much greater. Of course there would have to be full studies of 'people who drive 2 wheels safely" vs normal, etc. then a billion other variables.

Bottom line, it is a choice. No clue how it pans out over time statistically, but if it was THAT dangerous, there would probably be a lot more laws regarding motorcycles and scooters. If you're a skilled rider, and keep learning, and then add good gear on top of it, your chances of serious issues are probably pretty miniscule.
Image
bimbom
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: nyc

Post by bimbom »

tortoise wrote:So in other words . . you are unwilling to accept the consequences, and want others to reinforce your denial.
I didn't say that.. I was only looking to hear of other people's experiences hearing this "advice." I'm not in denial.. I know riding two wheels is more dangerous, but there's a lot you can do to mitigate that danger.

It is good to hear that there are many who ride for years without accidents, and that a lot of it comes down to decision of how you ride. Of course no amount of gear is going to save you from a head-on collision, but then again you probably won't be too well off in a car in those circumstances either.
User avatar
SYMbionic Duo
Member
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:06 am
Location: Minneapolis

Post by SYMbionic Duo »

As someone who rides in the upper Midwest year round, i expect that i will go down. I already have gone down more than most here, and the worst i've had to deal with is scraped knees and a slightly dislocated wrist bone.

Wear a helmet, and if you go down, pick yourself up, and get back on that horse...er scooter.

-duo
Nothing is Foolproof to a sufficiently talented Fool.
User avatar
Mutt the Hoople
Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:53 pm
Location: Saint Louis

Post by Mutt the Hoople »

Everyone has an opinion. Statistics are almost 100% that you will be in at least one fairly serious car accident in your life. You can look it up, plenty of sources on that. Now that you know, are you going to stop driving a car?

Yes. You are more vulnerable on two wheels and yes you are at the mercy of ever idiot yapping or texting on a cell phone while driving, fighting with their kids, pissed off about work, eating or drinking in the car, messing with their stereo, effing clueless AND the complete douche bags that hate you simply because you are on two wheels.

But you enjoys riding. I do to. I'm a first time rider at 50. I live in the city, got a Buddy 50cc... Loved it more than I thought and added a Vespa GTV 250 to the mix. You have to watch, be aware, and anticipate. And wear protective gear and minimize getting hurt. The fear, if you will, of getting hurt keeps me aware and on my toes. No one wants to get hurt. But to me the benefits outweigh the risk and I love the joy of riding. I just try to avoid stupid things and not ride beyond my skills.

Living life has its risks. I have a dog. I love my dog. He's 50lbs with sharp teeth. He could probably kill me if he really decided he wanted to... Dogs, genetically speaking are not that far from Wolves. Do I fear my dog or not have one because of that? No. I've trained him well and he's a fantastic pet.

If you like riding, then ride. Simple as that. Just take the proper precautions and be smart about it. Life is too short to not live it.
96 Decibel Freaks
User avatar
BeefSupreme
Member
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:03 pm
Location: Mobile, AL
Contact:

Post by BeefSupreme »

tortoise wrote:So in other words . . you are unwilling to accept the consequences, and want others to reinforce your denial.
One of your posts from another recent thread "So how is posting multiple pity-party sympathy threads going to solve the issue . . talk about being in denial!

I may have less posts than you but you seem to be the one in denial about being helpful. But what would MB be without the occasional Troll to remind us we're on the internet.

As for the OP: I started riding in April and have heard plenty of this type of talk. Sure we take chances, but EVERYTHING in life is a chance. I enjoy riding enough to justify the risks. I take every precaution possible. People can get seriously injured or killed even in the biggest of cages at any moment on the road. Scooting is no different. That's just the way things are. I appreciate other peoples points of view on things (if they don't come from Tortoise) but it's just their opinion. You live only once, and it's best on a scooter!!!
User avatar
Scooterboi
Member
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: Lakewood, CO

Post by Scooterboi »

http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorc ... ient+rider

IMHO, one of the better books on what you can do about it. Enjoy.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

If you've yet to do so, get a copy of David Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling" and read the chapter on Risk Acceptance. Every 2-wheel rider should own this.

There are a lot of catchy truisms and homilies about crashing and risk. To me, many are rationalizations based on faulty logic (on both sides). For me to deal with this issue (especially after a couple of crashes), I had to take honest looks at the real risks involved, the potential consequences, and how I planned to either deal with them or just accept them.

This is why, after my second crash, I didn't complain about my injuries. I just felt as if I'd no right to. It was just one of the possible outcomes of riding. I couldn't have avoided the crash. The only thing for me to do was deal with it and move on.

Break it down to the bare facts:
  • Crashing is not inevitable.
  • However, there is no way to guarantee that you won't have a crash. The risk is always present. It's a significant risk.
  • If you do crash, your risk of injury is actually pretty high. The risks of injury and fatality are both significantly higher than for those in cars.
  • Crashing on a scooter or motorcycle is likely to cost you more (in medical bills and other expenses) than if you were in a car.
  • There are things that you can do to decrease the likelihood of crashing, such as taking the MSF class, abstaining from alcohol, safe riding behaviors and good judgement.
  • There are things that you can do to mitigate the risks of injury and fatality, such as wearing gear.
  • You can also address possible personal costs with proper vehicle and health insurance.
Then ask yourself how much you're willing to do in exchange for the risks—knowing that even if you do everything, you cannot eliminate the risk, only reduce it.

We accept this risk every time we ride. Whether or not we're conscious of it, many of our decisions regarding riding (whether to ride on a freeway, whether to wear an open or full face helmet, etc.) come down to risk vs. reward or other perceived benefit.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
neotrotsky
Member
Posts: 1546
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:48 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Post by neotrotsky »

ericalm wrote:If you've yet to do so, get a copy of David Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling" and read the chapter on Risk Acceptance. Every 2-wheel rider should own this.

There are a lot of catchy truisms and homilies about crashing and risk. To me, many are rationalizations based on faulty logic (on both sides). For me to deal with this issue (especially after a couple of crashes), I had to take honest looks at the real risks involved, the potential consequences, and how I planned to either deal with them or just accept them.

This is why, after my second crash, I didn't complain about my injuries. I just felt as if I'd no right to. It was just one of the possible outcomes of riding. I couldn't have avoided the crash. The only thing for me to do was deal with it and move on.

Break it down to the bare facts:
  • Crashing is not inevitable.
  • However, there is no way to guarantee that you won't have a crash. The risk is always present. It's a significant risk.
  • If you do crash, your risk of injury is actually pretty high. The risks of injury and fatality are both significantly higher than for those in cars.
  • Crashing on a scooter or motorcycle is likely to cost you more (in medical bills and other expenses) than if you were in a car.
  • There are things that you can do to decrease the likelihood of crashing, such as taking the MSF class, abstaining from alcohol, safe riding behaviors and good judgement.
  • There are things that you can do to mitigate the risks of injury and fatality, such as wearing gear.
  • You can also address possible personal costs with proper vehicle and health insurance.
Then ask yourself how much you're willing to do in exchange for the risks—knowing that even if you do everything, you cannot eliminate the risk, only reduce it.

We accept this risk every time we ride. Whether or not we're conscious of it, many of our decisions regarding riding (whether to ride on a freeway, whether to wear an open or full face helmet, etc.) come down to risk vs. reward or other perceived benefit.
This.

Life isn't a safe place. If it were, it would suck BIG time. But, if you accept the risks, make smart decisions and understand certain factors, life can be AWESOME and you can enjoy it for quite a while.
"Earth" without Art is just "Eh"...

<a href="http://slowkidsscootergang.wordpress.com/">The Slow Kids Scooter Gang</a>
User avatar
TroutBum
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: San Jose, CA

Post by TroutBum »

It's no secret that acidents happen. The thing you need to know is to not put yourself intentionally into harms way. Ride defensively, keep your wits about you and don't take unneccesary chances. I have seen lots of motorcycle accidents that were the fault of the cyclist for thinking s/he was invicible.
Image
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

BeefSupreme wrote:I may have less posts than you but you seem to be the one in denial about being helpful. But what would MB be without the occasional Troll to remind us we're on the internet.
A better place, perhaps.

toroise, I will remind you again of the Posting Guidelines. If you're here for no other reason than being confrontational, then this probably isn't a good forum for you.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
Tristik
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:01 am
Location: Lake Geneva, WI

Post by Tristik »

~~
I heard a lot of the same talk when I started looking into getting my first bike (Had mine for 3 weeks at the moment).

The thing is, a lot of those 'it's when, not if' accidents are minor. People count dumping your bike in your driveway doing 2 mph as one of those inevitable accidents.

It's all chance but, driving a car, going on an airplane, even just walking to Starbucks on the weekend can be all chance. Don't drive like an idiot, wear protective gear, and learn you and your bikes capabilities and drive within them. Just seems like a no-brainer that, at some point in your life, something is going to happen that you can't really avoid. Doesn't really have anything to do with you being on 2-wheels or not.

That's not to say a bike doesn't have increased risk. Obviously, the amount of variables that can cause a bike accident are higher than a car accident. That's just common sense. You can't get away with the same "Oh man, that was close" kind of stuff you can in a car.
~~
User avatar
Stitch
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:12 pm
Location: Port royal Pa

Post by Stitch »

I'd rather accept the risk than sit around a nursing home when I'm 90 telling everyone how safe I was.
"Stella" is Latin for "use threadlocker on all fasteners"
MYSCTR
Member
Posts: 1007
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: McKinney Texas

Re: the "it's not if but WHEN" talk, from older fo

Post by MYSCTR »

bimbom wrote:I'm in my mid twenties.

I frequently hear older friends saying "it's not if you crash, but when..."

I drove a car for 5 years and had one minor accident

Just some thoughts that have been bothering me recently.

If you are aware would you be better prepared IF it happened? Could that save your life? Possibly would you choose to NOT make a stupid mistake if you consciously thought it through first? Real simple - you have to look in the mirror every day and know it is you in charge of what you drive or ride and you can have a big impact on the results every day.

Think of what they are saying - if you keep it on your mind (not crazy panic like, just aware) you will be more alert, stay more alert and see and react for everyone else and probably live longer. When you take a motorcycle safety class or study online or read a riding safety book, you may be very aware yet with no or very little real experience or different kinds of experience the odds are you may not realize how important it is to constantly stay aware and alert and end up a statistic.

I know I am not alone here yet I am close to 20K miles on my Buddy, rode a few motorcycles like over two decades ago and yet in the middle have ridden road bikes several thousands of miles on the road and maybe a couple of thousand off road. We look at things different and I can say thank God I have not gone down on.

My oldest son is in his mid 20's and just hit a new high speed on his road bike last Sunday. Sixty point three miles per hour! He did not go down, yet I know he has gone down racing a few times in his short career. Ya, we think differently.

Hope this helps...
Image
MYSCTR
Member
Posts: 1007
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: McKinney Texas

Post by MYSCTR »

Tristik wrote:~~
People count dumping your bike in your driveway doing 2 mph as one of those inevitable accidents.
~~
I REALLY do love my wife so I won't say any names here yet we have an Italia rider that did that at zero mph TWICE! Once in the driveway and once in a turn lane.

Cowl protectors really work!
Image
User avatar
viney266
Member
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 pm
Location: westminster md
Contact:

Post by viney266 »

Practice...train, ride, have fun, ride MORE...get better. BEAT the odds and smile the whole time :P
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
User avatar
Tocsik
Member
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: Denver

Post by Tocsik »

There are many people doing all sorts of risky activities because they enjoy it. Everything from riding a bike, skateboarding, skiing, hunting and fishing to frying a turkey at Thanksgiving, bungee jumping, kayaking, wake boarding etc, etc.
If you enjoy something, go ahead and do it but take the necessary precautions to keep the risks low. Life is for living; not hiding.

It's better than being this guy:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EWgEFrTCt38" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
.::I know the voices in my head aren't real, but man do they come up with some great ideas::.
Image
User avatar
JHScoot
Member
Posts: 2745
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:05 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Post by JHScoot »

don't worry about it. ride well and be safe :)
Riding is riding
kenbike
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:31 am
Location: Ohio

Post by kenbike »

Over 50,000 people die in car crashes every year but most still drive cars.
That is what I tell folks who lecture me about riding my scooter or motorcycle. I kept it very quite that I have a low 9 second ZX-14 drag bike that hit's 155 mph in the quarter mile. I have a very important position at my company and a lot of people depend on me being there. But every one rides in cars, eats food they should not, some hunt, ski ect so I tell them its my choice and I take all of the safety precautions that make sense. Riding provides a sense of freedom that maybe only can be topped by flying in a small plane so I will continue riding until I decide to stop. As I get older I will maybe transition to a 3 wheeler if needed but I do not plan on stopping.
psssniper
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 2:10 am
Location: San Clemente

Post by psssniper »

Some friends and I, over cigars and whiskey, were talking about motorcycle riding last night and all the trips we've done. Between us there was over 150,000 miles of riding with no accidents. Bikes tipped over once or twice, had a couple close calls with cagers but no accidents between all three of us.
We've all completed the MSF beginning and advanced courses and we ride fully aware of the dangers out there. All that riding was on big bikes and now I am the "scooter guy" Full credit to my friends as no one made scooter jokes or fat chick jokes and they actually think scooters are cool.
User avatar
michelle_7728
Member
Posts: 1914
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Renton, WA

Post by michelle_7728 »

There is a lot of good advice in this thread, so I won't make everyone read a repeat of all that.

I'll just add that when ever I'm tempted to do something that might be a little out of my comfort level, or even if I'm comfortable doing it, I think it's maybe a little risky, I tell myself "Old and bold". Meaning "there are old, and there are bold, but no old AND bold motorcycle riders. That always gives me an attitude check. :wink:
Southerner
Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 am
Location: Alabama

Post by Southerner »

FWIW, I'm 53 and except for a decade or so hiatus, I've owned and ridden a MC since grammar school.

I haven't dropped on the pavement since my teens and except for some stupid stuff done at low speed off the road, or, more embarassing, while standing still, I've never dropped a street bike.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it can't happen, just because I'm careful.

I try to keep the if/when thing in the back of my mind to keep me on my toes. I think it's constructive.

I do, however, tire of the compulsion both acquaintances and strangers have to inform me about their husband/brother/cousin/grandson/inlaw who was killed/maimed/hurt/scared shitless while riding those dangerous things.
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

bimbom wrote:I frequently hear older friends saying "it's not if you crash, but when..."
I don't really accept that as an older/younger thing. I most often see it said at this site as an excuse by inexperienced riders for why they made a mistake. I have been riding for about 50 years and I certainly don't agree that dumping your bike is inevitable. In my experience, safe riding is much more a matter of skills and awareness than it is a matter of good luck.
Southerner
Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 am
Location: Alabama

Post by Southerner »

Not inevitable. But not unlikely either.

And all the skill in the world will not shield you from unpredictable, stupid things done by other drivers. Or the stupid deer.
TVB

Re: the "it's not if but WHEN" talk, from older fo

Post by TVB »

bimbom wrote:I frequently hear older friends saying "it's not if you crash, but when..."
They're wrong.

It's an easily-verified fact that not all motorcycle/scooter riders crash at some point. It is not inevitable. In fact, it's very evitable, by riding sensibly, cautiously, and defensively. Your goal should be a perfect riding record, because it's definitely possible.

But it's equally true that it's not entirely under your control. Even if you do everything right, someone else can screw up and put you in a crash. And that can happen at any time.

So ride like you intend to never crash, but gear up like you expect it to happen on your next ride.
User avatar
charlie55
Member
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:47 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by charlie55 »

You could make an argument that watching C-SPAN is a risky behavior since many people die in their sleep.
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

Southerner wrote:....all the skill in the world will not shield you from unpredictable, stupid things done by other drivers.
Actually, skill and situational awareness WILL protect you from many stupid actions by other drivers. Not all, of course, but we are all simply trying to get the odds much more on our side - and that is doable in my experience.
Southerner
Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 am
Location: Alabama

Post by Southerner »

Dooglas wrote:
Southerner wrote:....all the skill in the world will not shield you from unpredictable, stupid things done by other drivers.
Actually, skill and situational awareness WILL protect you from many stupid actions by other drivers. Not all, of course, but we are all simply trying to get the odds much more on our side - and that is doable in my experience.
True. And that's all we can do. I'd like to hope that I made all my mistakes back in my dirt bike days.

All beginners make mistakes. That's why I cringe when some adult whose parents never let him (or her) ride when they were young decides that since they have the money and no parents around to say "no", they will buy the biggest, baddest thing on the market, either a huge cruiser or a crotch rocket. Normally it's guys who fall for this macho stuff but not always.
User avatar
rsrider
Member
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:05 am
Location: Lompton Kalifornication

Post by rsrider »

Along with being aware of what's around you (situational awareness), you shouldn't over ride the road or out ride the vehicle. A lot of two wheels accidents are single vehicle accidents (I think they're the majority of accidents) and most of those can be attributed to people not riding within their skill set, trying to force their scooter/MC to do things it wasn't designed to do, and not paying attention to the condition of the road you're traveling on. Drinking and drug use while operating a vehicle is another matter.

BTW: I've been riding on the street for decades (mostly MC's) and haven't gone down. I've even been hit by a couple of deers (and other animals) and didn't crash. YMMV, but you're not preordained to crash just because you ride on two wheels.
Using the internet for evil since 1994.
Lokky
Member
Posts: 763
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:52 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Lokky »

My take on this is that I would rather be mentally prepared than not in the eventuality that it happens.
Had I not expected a crash in my life, I may not have recovered so quickly from the shock of what happened this may.
I was unhurt thanks to gear and we were able to find a new body for my Stella's engine to live in.
If I had not expected something like this I may have gotten too scared to ride again.
vantage
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:02 pm
Location: Western NC

Post by vantage »

In the same way that it is okay to accept the risk, it is also okay to reject it.


You do not have to keep riding if it makes you uncomfortable. It is okay to sell the bike and say "Been There Done That..Next"
User avatar
rsrider
Member
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:05 am
Location: Lompton Kalifornication

Post by rsrider »

vantage wrote:In the same way that it is okay to accept the risk, it is also okay to reject it.


You do not have to keep riding if it makes you uncomfortable. It is okay to sell the bike and say "Been There Done That..Next"
There is this. If you're being overwhelmed with fear every time you get on your machine, you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. If there is a time where my head is preoccupied with crashing while I'm riding, I'm going to stop riding. Hasn't happened, doubt if it will (I've been riding since I was 5), but I'm not going to roll around with the fear monkey on my back.
Using the internet for evil since 1994.
heatherkay
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:09 am
Location: Kansas City

Post by heatherkay »

This lady never laid it down, with more than 50 years of riding

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/09/06/37 ... -maid.html
User avatar
sunshinen
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:21 pm
Location: Morrison, CO

Post by sunshinen »

ericalm wrote:
Break it down to the bare facts:
  • Crashing is not inevitable.
  • However, there is no way to guarantee that you won't have a crash. The risk is always present. It's a significant risk.
  • If you do crash, your risk of injury is actually pretty high. The risks of injury and fatality are both significantly higher than for those in cars.
  • Crashing on a scooter or motorcycle is likely to cost you more (in medical bills and other expenses) than if you were in a car.
  • There are things that you can do to decrease the likelihood of crashing, such as taking the MSF class, abstaining from alcohol, safe riding behaviors and good judgement.
  • There are things that you can do to mitigate the risks of injury and fatality, such as wearing gear.
  • You can also address possible personal costs with proper vehicle and health insurance.
Then ask yourself how much you're willing to do in exchange for the risks—knowing that even if you do everything, you cannot eliminate the risk, only reduce it.

We accept this risk every time we ride. Whether or not we're conscious of it, many of our decisions regarding riding (whether to ride on a freeway, whether to wear an open or full face helmet, etc.) come down to risk vs. reward or other perceived benefit.
:+!:

You can also mitigate risk by the time of day that you ride, the roads you choose to ride on, the weather conditions...

In 6 years, I've never had a wreck. For 2.5 of those years, the scooter was my only motorized vehicle. It is my primary means of commuting. But I don't get complacent. I acknowledge that there is always the chance of an accident outside my control.

On a sillier note. For the folks saying those sorts of things, I like to point out the precautions I take, and then point out that the percent of Americans who die of heart disease each year is higher than the percent of licensed motorcyclists who die in a motorcycle wreck each year. So, you could tell them: "You're right, it's not if, but when... and statistically speaking your bacon habit is more dangerous than my scooter habit."
Scooter Commuter
50CC Cape Cod
Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:02 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Post by 50CC Cape Cod »

riding and driver always have some risk. I ride scooters drive small cars and very small cars and there is always someone to say I would not want to be hit head on by a semi in that. My response I would not want to be hit head on in anything. I have dumped a motorcycle twice and have had a car accident
but you learn your limits and respect what you ride or drive and learn to be safe. There is always some jerk to make a remark out there like I would trade it before the warranty is up etc. What is it to them anyway just being a jerk let it go in one ear and out the other. If you enjoy it that is what is important not what they say.
User avatar
Collette
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:19 pm
Location: Pasadena CA

Post by Collette »

My close friend mentioned he wanted a motorcycle to take a ride now and then, but that he wouldnt ride it everyday because:

"Statistics show if you ride your bike 365/year you will get in an accident"

. . . awkward

I then explained I ride my 50 every single day rain or shine (got rid of the car a year ago) and as of September 30th it will have been a year and its just like cmon you cant be THAT dependent upon statistics right?

Ive met many riders who tell me about their accidents (mostly men who were indeed speeding and usually on the freeway) and I also speak to riders in traffic who have never been in an accident. The one time I did almost get hit it was my fault and I was trying to creep up on the side of a car in traffic to make a right turn. Personally, I feel like there is nothing to fear. Be responsible.

Pay attention and scoot like everyone is trying to kill you.
If you want to know where a road leads, ask someone on their way back.
Lokky
Member
Posts: 763
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:52 am
Location: Richmond VA

Post by Lokky »

As a scientist I find it rather amusing how both sides misunderstand statistics at its core and would rather rely on anecdotal evidence.

Also, I guess in light of today's crash I can weight in a little bit more.


As some of you may have read I hit a deep patch of gravel that was camouflaged into the road and went skidding. There was literally nothing I could have done different as I did not realize the gravel was there until I was already on my way down, I was not speeding, I did not even touch the brakes. Me going down today was simply a fact that I have to accept.

Would I have been less hurt had I worn more gear? Absolutely, but I had just gotten out of work and my mind was set on enjoying the great fall weather instead.

When I went down, as soon as I was sure I did not break anything, my concerns went to my patch jacket, and then to the bike. Thankfully neither is damaged beyond repair and the bike shall live to ride another day.

I feel like my accepting that a crash will happen to me at some point in the future has put me in a position where, instead of loom and hate on myself for what happened, I can simply move on with my life, knowing another crash may happen another day, but maintaining an upbeat disposition and hoping that I am in riding shape ASAP (as I do have a job now and students depending on me, I wouldn't want to miss a single day if I have a say)
User avatar
LunaP
Member
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Post by LunaP »

Yes, you can crash.
No, it may no be your fault when you do.
No, riding two wheels rather than four does not guarantee you will crash.
Yes, riding two wheels rather than four IS, however, more dangerous and costly if you DO crash or drop.
No, you should not let it prevent you from riding when you enjoy riding.
Yes, you should do everything you can to reduce the risks and protect yourself if it does happen.

You can do this by educating yourself, educating other people, making sure you have proper insurance coverage (both MC and medical), and properly gearing yourself.

For goodness sakes, wear gear. I'm a poster kid for why you should.
User avatar
KeLynn
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: Cincinnati

Post by KeLynn »

There are always going to be horror stories. My MSF instructor started the class by telling us that he became an instructor because he was tired of going to his friends' funerals. I bought my first riding jacket from a friend who it didn't fit anymore, because she got in a bad accident (going only 20mph or slower) and couldn't walk for months.

No one's ever going to stop telling you the scary stories because the scary stories do happen, and they are scary. And no one else can decide if it's worth the risk to you.
User avatar
avonpirate
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:31 pm
Location: Vail Valley, CO
Contact:

Post by avonpirate »

I understand what you are asking because when I got my 125, I began to hear warnings, stories, statistics, fears. And I wondered ..... why hadn't I thought of any of this? the POTENTIAL consequences of my actions. I once again realized, (I am an 'extreme athlete') that LIFE is a gamble. I won't be stupid. I will get my skills in place. I will use reasonable judgement and I will defend myself against others, as THEY are dangerous. (I was left for dead: unconscious on the hill at Breckenridege by a hit and run slider on an intermediate slope.) Boredom WILL kill me. Adventure ignites me. So I smile and nod and 'hear' Their stories, acknowledge THEIR concerns, and appreciate THEIR experience. Life is not a spectator sport for me. Bring on the dancing girls!!!!
She with the most 'used' toys wins.

Image
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

Lokky wrote:As a scientist I find it rather amusing how both sides misunderstand statistics at its core and would rather rely on anecdotal evidence.
Having received some formal training in statistics, I can tell you why people prefer anecdotal evidence. Statistics are like The Law of Fives

Consider these quotes from Wikipedia:
The Law of Fives states simply that: All things happen in fives, or are divisible by or are multiples of five, or are somehow directly or indirectly appropriate to 5. The Law of Fives is never wrong.
—Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia, Page 00016
Robert Shea's and Robert Anton Wilson's The Illuminatus! Trilogy ... The authors assert that the real Law of Fives is realizing that everything can be related to the number five if you try hard enough.
Outside of a lab, statistics are completely reliant on the question you ask, the population you choose, and the point you want to make. Unfortunately, in discussions like this one, everyone, especially those who advocate the "it's not if, but when you crash" school of thought, have a point to make.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
TVB

Post by TVB »

64% of statistics are 37% wrong, and 89% of statistics are only 22% relevant.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

Anecdotal evidence is pretty useful when it comes to discussing crashes. Many of us only realize the risks involved in riding when we, or someone we know, experience crashes firsthand. Statistics are hard to relate to. Road rash, friends with scars and damaged scooters are hard to ignore.

Interestingly, though, when we compiled stats based on our rather unscientific Crash Reports thread, they pretty much mirrored national statistics.
Syd wrote:Outside of a lab, statistics are completely reliant on the question you ask, the population you choose, and the point you want to make. Unfortunately, in discussions like this one, everyone, especially those who advocate the "it's not if, but when you crash" school of thought, have a point to make.
People are often distrustful of any statistic that doesn't support their preconceptions and biases. There's a common belief that statistics can be twisted to support any point of view. That's like saying words can be used to make any argument. Good stats are based on sound methodologies for gathering data and conducting research. As with all info we're presented with these days, consider the sources. Crash statistics usually come from un-biased sources such as governmental agencies. The insurance industry also reports some stats, and though they have a stake in it, their figures generally agree with other sources.

If crash statistics are inaccurate, it's likely due to under-reporting. Crash statistics are generally based on self reporting, police reports, insurance claims and hospital records. This leaves out a large number of crashes. Some of these may even be relatively serious crashes by riders who may be under-insured (or uninsured), without proper licensing, and so on. Others may be injured and not seek medical care, go to an emergency clinic and so on. There are also issues with how different states gather statistics and how they define various terms, etc.

All that said, fixating on the statistics (as I have at times) might give a general sense of the risks but provides little practical guidance. In the end, if you crash, statistics don't mean shit and are little comfort if you're injured, paying for bills out of pocket and have a damaged (or totaled) scooter.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
JHScoot
Member
Posts: 2745
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:05 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: the "it's not if but WHEN" talk, from older fo

Post by JHScoot »

bimbom wrote:I hate to think I'm at the mercy of other drivers, even though I am. My favorite time to ride is early morning when nobody is out. I'd like to think my skill is the only thing between me being safe and me getting into an accident. And there is a freedom acquired during riding in those times that I haven't been able to acquire doing anything else.

Just some thoughts that have been bothering me recently.
i think you have a good attitude about it :)



gravity / physics / luck plays the biggest part imo. so far as "going down." decision making? sometimes the best decision is going down or slamming into a left turner, or the best option simply cannot be executed in time. or you hit a phantom / blind slick like so many have and do and will

"should not have" "would not have"

i really cannot fathom anyone actually riding into dangerous situations. yes i know its inherent in riding. and riding in traffic is a whole other fun story. but some do ride in rain and snow and ice and other adverse weather and road conditions.. you must be very focused while riding in those conditions. but if the scoot were to drop does that mean you should have just used another mode of transport that day? was the bad decision to ride in the first place? if so it might be a bad decision to ride everyday no matter the conditions. or just don't ride in those conditions. i say listen to the fear and consider it accordingly :)

i would just stress to everyone to not ride beyond your abilities and the abilities of your scooter. have a scooter with enough pop for its purpose, and keep it in fairly good shape. it helps if you start with a fairly good scooter

once you know how to ride, keep riding until something happens. when it happens assess the damage and consequences and process the info. LOT'S of things will come into play when a rider decides to continue or not. some will be personal. and it cannot be second guessed, really. some people simply fall one or two times and never ride again. true story. i have fallen twice, once from a scoot moving around 30mph

i reasoned after assessing the minor damage to myself and the scoot "would i endure this every so often for the love of riding my scooter."

the answer was yes. battle scars on scooter, and i had a good case of road rash, swollen knees and a badly sprained right hand that kept me off the bike for 5 weeks. lots of bruises and aches and pains all over for two weeks

so that is my cheap experience and i willl be very happy not to have another. but I had no reason not to ride again

its not worth worrying about imo. just be prepared the best you can. do some reading and more riding. learn from the stories of others. and always be concerned with all aspects of being on the road once on it
Riding is riding
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

Statistics are a collection of quantitative methods for better understanding and interpreting a series of observations. There are nothing wrong with individual observations, just doen't expect to "cherry pick" the ones you like to prove a point you already believe :wink: .

And we are not talking statistics when we are talking about hitting a patch of loose gravel on a recently "chip sealed" road. We are talking about the experience and awareness to recognize a recent "chip seal" job, and avoid it or slow way down and start looking for patches of loose gravel. There are always actions you can take to get the odds more on your side.
Post Reply