170i Problems **RESOLVED!!**

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:31 pm

Got a 170i about a month ago. It's been absolutely fantastic for me, and I've loved each and every of the 700 miles I've put on it.

Until today..

On my way to work this morning, I didn't have anywhere near enough power. The hill I usually take at 40mph, I only hit 30 with the throttle wide open. At speeds about 35, the RPM's start to jump and I'm not getting anywhere near full speed out of it.

Any thoughts?

(Yes, I'm calling the dealer for service today, just wanted to see if anyone else had ideas or similar problems.)

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:40 pm

So I assume that with 700 miles on the scooter you have already had your scheduled first service? About 250-350 miles ago?

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:00 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:So I assume that with 700 miles on the scooter you have already had your scheduled first service? About 250-350 miles ago?

Oh yes, well past the first service.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:29 pm

Hopefully it one of the EFI sensors like throttle position or O2 (if they have them), what you don't want is a loss of compression due to a blown head gasket. Check your spark plug to make sure they tightened it past finger tight, now loose allowing loss of compression.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:59 pm

I'm wondering if the gas tank was overfilled. But the rev jumping thing doesn't really tie into that, unless it was trying to clear the fuel 'blockage'.

Open up your gas cap , close it, and see if that makes a difference.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:13 pm

Probably not so much, as most FI systems rely on pressurized fuel systems. The 'whoosh' would be outwards rather than inwards

Sensor sounds the most reasonable - I once had some idle weirdness on a throttle-body sensor.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:25 pm

PeteH wrote:Probably not so much, as most FI systems rely on pressurized fuel systems. The 'whoosh' would be outwards rather than inwards

The fuel injected Vespas suffer from similar maladies if they are overfilled.
If you choke the EVAP system, it does not matter if it is carbed or FI.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:27 pm

desmolicious wrote:
The fuel injected Vespas suffer from similar maladies if they are overfilled.
If you choke the EVAP system, it does not matter if it is carbed or FI.

Solution? I'm willing to try anything before taking it in; the dealer is about an hour out of the way.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Make sure you dont do anything that will void that warranty

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:13 pm

sja5164 wrote:
desmolicious wrote:
The fuel injected Vespas suffer from similar maladies if they are overfilled.
If you choke the EVAP system, it does not matter if it is carbed or FI.
Solution? I'm willing to try anything before taking it in; the dealer is about an hour out of the way.

First off, open and close your gas cap. See if that makes any difference.
See if any gas is in your EVAP system. I am not familiar with your bike, but with others it involves unplugging the hose and draining out the gas.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:37 pm

Well, it's at Mosites now. Service manager said it'll be at least a week before he can even look at it. Now I'm all depressed.

Guess it's back to the 20mpg truck for a week or so.

rsrider · Post by **rsrider** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:19 am

The 170's come with 4 squirrels, not the usual 3. More pellets!!!

mr_salty · Post by **mr_salty** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:22 am

sja5164 wrote:Well, it's at Mosites now. Service manager said it'll be at least a week before he can even look at it. Now I'm all depressed.

Yikes! I'll be interested to hear about your experience there - I just bought a Buddy 170i from them a couple weeks ago. I thought I was doing good with 130mi but apparently I'm not riding enough. Makes me nervous to only have one option for service though.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:50 am

Well, this is the first FI Buddy. Was thinking about this one but with the purchase date inching closer, I'm still holding out until I get a clear report on how these things do before pulling the trigger this fall.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:04 am

Especially since its basically an maxed oversize of the 125 platform using the same crankshaft throw and weight, that on top of FI and you have an engine with no design tolerance. But I can t be hypocritical, as much as its convenient for me to say Im waiting for the shakedown report, if I had known about the 170I and becasue FI is inherently so much more start/run reliable, I admit I would have bought one vice the 150 carb model, FI is inherently that much better..

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:51 am

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Especially since its basically an maxed oversize of the 125 platform using the same crankshaft throw and weight, that on top of FI and you have an engine with no design tolerance. But I can t be hypocritical, as much as its convenient for me to say Im waiting for the shakedown report, if I had known about the 170I and becasue FI is inherently so much more start/run reliable, I admit I would have bought one vice the 150 carb model, FI is inherently that much better..

CWO4GUNNER, curious, where are you getting your information? As far as I know it is not simply an upsized 125. It is a different engine. I'd like to know for sure.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:11 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
CWO4GUNNER wrote:Especially since its basically an maxed oversize of the 125 platform using the same crankshaft throw and weight, that on top of FI and you have an engine with no design tolerance. But I can t be hypocritical, as much as its convenient for me to say Im waiting for the shakedown report, if I had known about the 170I and becasue FI is inherently so much more start/run reliable, I admit I would have bought one vice the 150 carb model, FI is inherently that much better..
CWO4GUNNER, curious, where are you getting your information? As far as I know it is not simply an upsized 125. It is a different engine. I'd like to know for sure.

You're right! I got confirmation last night. The 125, 150, and now the 170 engines all share the same bottom end albeit modified. Learning, learning, learning... all the time learning.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:46 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Especially since its basically an maxed oversize of the 125 platform using the same crankshaft throw and weight, that on top of FI and you have an engine with no design tolerance.

Skootz Kabootz wrote:You're right! I got confirmation last night. The 125, 150, and now the 170 engines all share the same bottom end albeit modified.

I don't see any indications that the bottom end of the Buddy engine (or GY6 designs in general) are "maxed out" in this displacement range. How many crankshaft failures have been documented on Buddys? Not much discussion or reports on that subject here. Look at Piaggio engines. They mostly standardized on 3 engines through a range of displacements for most of their Vespa, Piaggio, and Aprilia products (the Leader, Quasar, and Master engines). Seems to work for them through a range of displacements and carbed/FI versions. Probably because, like the Buddy, the difference in power output through each model range is not all that large.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:47 pm

Heard back from Mosites. They couldn't find anything wrong. I'm going today or tomorrow to pick it up, so we'll see if it's ok now, or if they just didn't believe me that there was something wrong.

A side note on their service. I got charged 120 for them to tell me there's nothing wrong. I'm a little peeved about that. It has 700 miles!! I should not be paying for repairs!

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:55 pm

sja5164 wrote:A side note on their service. I got charged 120 for them to tell me there's nothing wrong. I'm a little peeved about that. It has 700 miles!! I should not be paying for repairs!

It is a frustrating truth that most servicing scooter dealers uise very inexperienced techs. They can change the oil, the plug, the rear tire, and even the CVT belt because someone showed them how to do it. If they have to diagnose an unusual or complex problem, things don't go so well. Is your dealer fairly new at this or does he have a large base of machines he services? My experience is that if you find a good servicing dealer or tech - stick with him, because they aren't all that common.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:08 pm

sja5164 wrote:A side note on their service. I got charged 120 for them to tell me there's nothing wrong. I'm a little peeved about that. It has 700 miles!! I should not be paying for repairs!

I'm surprised you had to pay anything at all. You're under warrantee after all. I'd say if you are unsure of if you should be covered, call Genuine and ask for clarification on what is and is not covered. Get your info straight and then go back to the dealer and work it out. If the work is covered under warrantee there should be no problem.

Rippinyarn · Post by **Rippinyarn** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:16 pm

Are you treating your fuel with Sea Foam? Were there any other symptoms (idle variations, smoke) during the instance of the problem?

I hope that it's fixed and that the problem never returns!

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:37 pm

sja5164 wrote:A side note on their service. I got charged 120 for them to tell me there's nothing wrong. I'm a little peeved about that. It has 700 miles!! I should not be paying for repairs!

Do NOT accept this.

If they found nothing wrong, then they did not have to do anything.
If they had to do some work, then it would be covered by the warranty.

If it was EVAP related like I mentioned earlier then there is a good chance that there is nothing wrong that they could find, because sometimes the gas blocking the EVAP system just evaporates/works its way out.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:57 pm

Well, now I'm p*****.

We're $120 in, and they haven't found a problem.

I picked it up yesterday, got about 10 minutes down the road and the original problem started again. Seems like it doesn't happen til it warms up and under a heavy load (uphill mostly). It's severely under-powered, then will ramp up the the proper power/RPM for about 10 feet, then right back down. Even my wife driving behind me could hear it.

Took it back to Mosites right away and the service manager hopped on and took it for a 20 minute run. He came back saying he didn't find a problem at all. He wanted to return my scooter to me last night because he couldn't find a problem, but for me it's un-ride-able right now. So tomorrow he's getting one of the small girls in their office to ride with him so that it takes more of a load.

I could not be more frustrated right now. I absolutely love my 170. Or at least I did for the first 700 miles...

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:30 pm

Why has this cost you ANYTHING?

jijifer · Post by **jijifer** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:31 pm

do you let it warm up before riding? by warm up i mean sit and idle until you hear the idle actually change? the dealers will say "about 2mins" but I think it's closer to 4mins.

warming up isn't about it being cold outside.. It's about getting all the fluids moving. I remember my shop, very early on, saying that not warming up caused the lion share of mechanical issues. and that not warming + a 3mile ride seemed to be a battery killer.

I take both sets of keys with me. I start the engine then go about getting all my gear one. Even then I still wait until I hear the idle settle.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:31 pm

ericalm wrote:Why has this cost you ANYTHING?

"As we could not find a problem nor can recreate your claim, it can't be covered by your warranty".

Plisar · Post by **Plisar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:53 pm

jijifer wrote:do you let it warm up before riding? by warm up i mean sit and idle until you hear the idle actually change? the dealers will say "about 2mins" but I think it's closer to 4mins.

warming up isn't about it being cold outside.. It's about getting all the fluids moving. I remember my shop, very early on, saying that not warming up caused the lion share of mechanical issues. and that not warming + a 3mile ride seemed to be a battery killer.

I take both sets of keys with me. I start the engine then go about getting all my gear one. Even then I still wait until I hear the idle settle.

This should be much less of an issue with an FI bike. In reality, he could probably drive off in 15 seconds and not have a problem.

Plisar · Post by **Plisar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:53 pm

sja5164 wrote:
ericalm wrote:Why has this cost you ANYTHING?
"As we could not find a problem nor can recreate your claim, it can't be covered by your warranty".

That's crap. Call Genuine. The dealer should either eat it or Genuine should be paying for it.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:00 pm

Plisar wrote:
jijifer wrote:do you let it warm up before riding? by warm up i mean sit and idle until you hear the idle actually change? the dealers will say "about 2mins" but I think it's closer to 4mins.

warming up isn't about it being cold outside.. It's about getting all the fluids moving. I remember my shop, very early on, saying that not warming up caused the lion share of mechanical issues. and that not warming + a 3mile ride seemed to be a battery killer.

I take both sets of keys with me. I start the engine then go about getting all my gear one. Even then I still wait until I hear the idle settle.
This should be much less of an issue with an FI bike. In reality, he could probably drive off in 15 seconds and not have a problem.

I usually let it warm up for a couple minutes. I start it, then get ready to go (stow my stuff, put on the helmet, check my phone, etc)

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:20 pm

Not likely that the problem you are describing would be caused by not "warming up" the scooter. Also not likely it would be caused by an evap system issue if it reoccurs immediately after removing and replacing the fuel cap. Have you tried the other obvious stuff? - air filter unobstructed? sparkplug and sparkplug wire tight? Granted that the dealer should have checked this stuff but you never know.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:30 pm

Oh, the amusing part of my tale...

3 different techs read me what the invoice said they did. All 3 (including the service manager) said they cleaned the carb....

IT'S FUEL INJECTED!!

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

Plisar · Post by **Plisar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:37 pm

sja5164 wrote:Oh, the amusing part of my tale...

3 different techs read me what the invoice said they did. All 3 (including the service manager) said they cleaned the carb....

IT'S FUEL INJECTED!!

That doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

Did they even do anything to the bike?

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:40 pm

Plisar wrote:Did they even do anything to the bike?

They claim they cleaned the injector, checked the spark plug, "cleaned the carb". When I asked the service manager he said "well we took a look at the entire fuel system".

I'm not sure what's going on. One thing's for certain, I won't be paying for it.

Plisar · Post by **Plisar** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:44 pm

Does this place have a website? I'd love to take a look...

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:45 pm

Plisar wrote:Does this place have a website? I'd love to take a look...

http://www.mositesmotorsports.com/

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:56 am

Well. It's been a week since I heard from Mosites despite several attempts to contact them. I sent an email to info@genuinescooters.com as that was the only contact I could find.

Does anyone have a direct contact at Genuine?

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:10 am

sja5164 wrote:Well. It's been a week since I heard from Mosites despite several attempts to contact them. I sent an email to info@genuinescooters.com as that was the only contact I could find.

Does anyone have a direct contact at Genuine?

Based entirely on what I read about pugbuddy's 170i in the "170i - sufficiently shaken down?" thread, I think Genuine are aware of a problem if not with your particular situation.

pugbuddy wrote:I had an issue with it on the road from Tulsa OK to New Orleans LA. The dealer has been working with Genuine on how to fix it.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:18 am

Based entirely on what I read about pugbuddy's 170i in the "170i - sufficiently shaken down?" thread, I think Genuine are aware of a problem if not with your particular scooter

That was an overheating problem that only occurs on long rides. Mine's having a power loss. Thanks though.

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:36 am

sja5164 wrote:
Based entirely on what I read about pugbuddy's 170i in the "170i - sufficiently shaken down?" thread, I think Genuine are aware of a problem if not with your particular scooter
That was an overheating problem that only occurs on long rides. Mine's having a power loss. Thanks though.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I had an automobile that had a problem with a flaky EFI sensor and the symptom was that it would switch into a low-power "limp home mode" every time the EFI detected the problem. It's all guesswork until your dealer gets a code reader that can interrogate the EFI computer which (I hope) captures and saves the error codes when it detects a problem.

Anyway, I'm just guessing. I hope Genuine gets this sorted out for you quickly.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:55 am

Just another angle...Are we sure its fuel related and not a slipping belt?...Just to check another angle?

If it is fuel, it sounds like its going too rich under load and dumping fuel to "protect" the motor...Question is what is causing it to go full rich and dump fuel...I haven't seen a 170 yet but I"m sure the FI is simple...Hopefully you have a shop that understands FI.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:18 pm

Maybe Mosites monitors this forum? Heard from them today.

They still say they can't duplicate the issue, so I should take my scoot back and pay them.

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:54 pm

Were you able to contact Genuine yet?

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:57 pm

Next time you are riding it, and it does it..See if you can stop by and let "em ride it RIGHT THEN

klaborde · Post by **klaborde** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:04 pm

sja5164 wrote:Maybe Mosites monitors this forum? Heard from them today.

They still say they can't duplicate the issue, so I should take my scoot back and pay them.

I would be calling Genuine and raising Hell Right now.
This is a new design, they should cut you some slack.
What did they do charge you money to just ride your bike and find nothing wrong.

I will be honest, since I found your post, I am going to put my next purchase on hold until I hear more about the new FI Engines.
I would have thought as long as FI was in use, this would be a no brainer. But maybe not on the Buddy?

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:08 pm

We don't know what the issue is yet, other than the dealer isn't adequately addressing the issue. Let's not start jumping to conclusions.

desmolicious · Post by **desmolicious** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:14 pm

ericalm wrote:We don't know what the issue is yet, other than the dealer isn't adequately addressing the issue. Let's not start jumping to conclusions.

Yup, all we know from this is that that dealership blows.

Mosites takes the scoot for a ride, cannot replicate the problem (why on earth would the owner take it in if there wasn't a problem??) and charges for the priviledge of the test ride? They truly suck.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:31 pm

jrsjr wrote:Were you able to contact Genuine yet?

Nope. I called this morning and left a message for a guy named Roy, but no answer yet.

sja5164 · Post by **sja5164** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:32 pm

viney266 wrote:Next time you are riding it, and it does it..See if you can stop by and let "em ride it RIGHT THEN

That's what I did, and they still don't see a problem.

klaborde · Post by **klaborde** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:18 pm

sja5164 wrote:
viney266 wrote:Next time you are riding it, and it does it..See if you can stop by and let "em ride it RIGHT THEN
That's what I did, and they still don't see a problem.

Wonder if you just got some crud in your Gas.
That always worries me, not only for Scooter, but Car/Trucks I have.
If I see a tanker truck parked, I keep going and fill up someplace else.

Modern Buddy

170i Problems RESOLVED!!

170i Problems RESOLVED!!