Engine power loss during commute this morning

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:24 pm

My brand new Blackjack. Has 180 miles on it as of this morning.

Three times on the way into work this morning, first the exhaust started popping, and then I would suddenly lose engine power while driving. After pulling over, the engine would stall completely, and then gave me trouble starting it back up.

It wasn't vapor lock, because I popped the gas cap off after the first time. No burst of pressure, and it continued to happen two more times. But the next two times were in relative quick succession, and then I managed to drive another 20 minutes with no more trouble.

This never happened to my old Blackjack, and this is the first trouble I've had with the new one.

Any ideas? A bit of bad gas had to be worked out perhaps? Think I should bring it into the shop today? Seems a shame to bring it there when I am so close to the first maintenance.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon May 09, 2011 3:03 pm

I had carb gunk in my '09-bought-in-'11. See if a slug of SeaFoam helps.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Mon May 09, 2011 3:23 pm

Its not common but tolerances at the factory can be set too tight and as the engine brakes in going through a substantial amount of "metal ware brake in", those tolerances can become too close causing the valves to escape gas and and begin to burn. Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.

If I have even the slightest hint that one of my bike is having trouble, I stop riding and find the problem.

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Mon May 09, 2011 3:36 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Its not common but tolerances at the factory can be set too tight and as the engine brakes in going through a substantial amount of "metal ware brake in", those tolerances can become too close causing the valves to escape gas and and begin to burn. Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.

If I have even the slightest hint that one of my bike is having trouble, I stop riding and find the problem.

So in other words, bring it to the shop. Since I have no idea how to actually check any of those things.

A mechanic, I am not.

Unfortunately, half-way to work was not a reasonable time to "stop riding", and I still have to get it home too. Though the shop is only about 1 mile from work.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon May 09, 2011 8:18 pm

Hope you get it all worked out! Thats a great scooter youve got there

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Tue May 10, 2011 12:06 am

CWO4GUNNER wrote:Its not common but tolerances at the factory can be set too tight and as the engine brakes in going through a substantial amount of "metal ware brake in", those tolerances can become too close causing the valves to escape gas and and begin to burn. Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.

If I have even the slightest hint that one of my bike is having trouble, I stop riding and find the problem.

Mechanic will have to check for all of the stuff you mentioned but one thing strikes me in what you said: plastic bag blocking air flow. Where or how would something like this occur?

Today I packed my underseat compartment pretty tightly. More so then usual. Could soemthing there cause problem?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Tue May 10, 2011 12:42 am

Nah - the Bud doesn't draw cooling air from the pet carrier. Instead, there is a black plastic air intake on the right-hand side of the engine that actually opens downward. This scoop gathers the air that circulates around the outside of the cylinder head (not combustion air). There are anecdotal stories of paper or plastic bags getting sucked up off the road ane into this cooling intake, blocking airflow and semi-overheating the engine.

Just reach up into the scoop and feel for any baggage.

easy · Post by **easy** » Tue May 10, 2011 12:50 am

popping sound might mean exhaust leak

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Tue May 10, 2011 1:15 am

PeteH wrote:Nah - the Bud doesn't draw cooling air from the pet carrier. Instead, there is a black plastic air intake on the right-hand side of the engine that actually opens downward. This scoop gathers the air that circulates around the outside of the cylinder head (not combustion air). There are anecdotal stories of paper or plastic bags getting sucked up off the road and into this cooling intake, blocking airflow and semi-overheating the engine.

Just reach up into the scoop and feel for any baggage.

Just came back from fishing expedition - nothing. I e-mailed my mechanic. Hopefully we can get in to see him soon. Poor Dobby was just fine this weekend. I rode to work, then dentist - no problems whatsoever. I I vary speed, just like I am supposed to during break-in period. Dobby is still under warranty. If our mechanic decides to honor it, that is......

jmkjr72 · Post by **jmkjr72** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:30 am

well i would have the valves checkd and also check the ele conections around the coil
i ahve heard that there is a chance that a wire can work looose and might cause an issue like that too

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:41 am

It does sound like a trip to the mechanic is in order, especially since your scoot is so new. But I wouldn't write off the possibility of vapor lock so quickly. When I experienced vapor lock, I also dismissed that as a possibility because I didn't hear any suction when I removed my gas cap. But that's what it turned out to be. In my case, my gas had been overfilled by a helpful gas station attendant. When I got down to about 1/4 tank, I started experiencing backfires and loss of power followed by stalling. I drilled little holes in my gas cap and have not had any issues since.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue May 10, 2011 2:55 am

ed85379 wrote:It wasn't vapor lock, because I popped the gas cap off after the first time. No burst of pressure, and it continued to happen two more times. But the next two times were in relative quick succession, and then I managed to drive another 20 minutes with no more trouble.

It may still have been vapor (or vacuum) lock. You won't always hear a burst of pressure. Did you leave the gas cap off after removing it or replace it?

I was riding with a friend on a BlackJack who experienced this. It was def. vapor (vacuum) lock. I removed the gas cap (no "whoosh"), started it up and ran the engine for a minute, revving it. Replaced gas cap and off we went. Then it happened again a couple minutes later. The solution was to just leave the gas cap off for a while. Her tank was not full, it wasn't hot outside. It can just happen like this.

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:02 am

I did put the cap back on. Would hate for the gas to splash into the underseat carrier.

The scooter was fine for the ride home. So, I filled the tank and added an oz of Seafoam. I expect it'll be fine.

pdxrita · Post by **pdxrita** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:06 am

ed85379 wrote:I did put the cap back on. Would take for the gas to splash into the underseat carrier.

The scooter was fine for the ride home. So, I filled the tank and added an oz of Seafoam. I expect it'll be fine.

So you were almost empty? That's exactly what happened to me. I'd fill it up and it would be fine until I got low again. I'm voting vapor lock.

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:52 am

pdxrita wrote:
ed85379 wrote:I did put the cap back on. Would take for the gas to splash into the underseat carrier.

The scooter was fine for the ride home. So, I filled the tank and added an oz of Seafoam. I expect it'll be fine.
So you were almost empty? That's exactly what happened to me. I'd fill it up and it would be fine until I got low again. I'm voting vapor lock.

I was at a quarter tank.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:19 am

You don't have to necessarily be a "mechanic" to do the things I mentioned becasue they are considered the basic that can be learned by anyone. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a new car or mechanic and attended a basic community college course at night twice a week, auto repair 101 and auto body 101. Shop class was fun and taught me the basics and from there whenever I needed to learn some new procedure I just cracked a shop manual, did some research and took my time. I always had 2 used cars to trade off whenever one needed repairs. Since then 38 years to the present the only thing I take my vehicles to the mechanic for are tire changes and wheel balancing, so I got a big return on my investment.

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:23 am

CWO4GUNNER wrote:You don't have to necessarily be a "mechanic" to do the things I mentioned becasue they are considered the basic that can be learned by anyone. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a new car or mechanic and attended a basic community college course at night twice a week, auto repair 101 and auto body 101. Shop class was fun and taught me the basics and from there whenever I needed to lean something new I just cracked a shop manual, did some research and took my time. I always had 2 used cars to trade off whenever one needed repairs. Since then 38 years to the present the only thing I take my vehicles to the mechanic for are tire changes and wheel balancing, so I got a big return on my investment.

I realize one doesn't need to be a mechanic. However, what I meant by that, is that I am not a gear-head at all, have very little interest in the inner-workings of motor vehicles, so have never taken the time or had enough interest to bother learning. The electronics I can deal with, but the engine and valves and such, I haven't a clue.

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:39 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote: Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.

Now the newbie question ; where are the valves and how to I get to the jets (whatever they are and wherever they are?)

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:02 pm

Stormswift wrote:
CWO4GUNNER wrote: Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.
Now the newbie question ; where are the valves and how to I get to the jets (whatever they are and wherever they are?)

Well besides the basic know how (hand tools and concepts) that's necessary from an experienced instructor or well experienced friend, the answer is on page 30 of the owners manual and page 28 of the shop manual. No matter how much you learn and experience wrenching, a successful mechanic will always have the service manual procedure reviewed and the book cracked for reference during the procedure. That is how its done, everything else is just hearsay.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed May 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Stormswift wrote:
CWO4GUNNER wrote: Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.
Now the newbie question ; where are the valves and how to I get to the jets (whatever they are and wherever they are?)

Valve adjustments:
topic8312.html
topic5671.html

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed May 11, 2011 10:46 pm

ericalm wrote:
Stormswift wrote:
CWO4GUNNER wrote: Follow the service manual and check your valve clearance, look at your spark plug burn color, make sure there are no obstructions like a plastic bag blocking airflow cooling, check your air intake box for rat litter, check your oil level, do a compression test and check your jets for an obstruction.
Now the newbie question ; where are the valves and how to I get to the jets (whatever they are and wherever they are?)
Valve adjustments:
topic8312.html
topic5671.html

If you've never set the valves on a motor before, get somebody to walk you through it. It's possible to damage your motor by making a mistake setting the valves. Don't ask me how I know this.

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:04 pm

<-------------

(in a faint on the ground next to Dobby). Not in this recarnation. Perhaps next time I will come back as a master mechanic. Dobby will just have to get over his belly ache with the use of a scooter laxative (aka Seafoam).
Strange thing is instead of getting vapor lock after longer ride it actually performs like its old self - speed goes back to normal, etc. I am totally buffled

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:32 pm

Stormswift wrote:Strange thing is instead of getting vapor lock after longer ride it actually performs like its old self - speed goes back to normal, etc. I am totally buffled

My scooter LOVES going for long hard rides. The harder and faster I ride it the happier it gets. It get's more responsive, runs smoother, and just all around feels peppier. Just like how happy a dog gets when it finally gets to go outside for a good run after being cooped up inside for too long. It just comes alive. I think the hard riding must simply clear things out in the engine. In my experience a scooter that only get ridden at 1/4 throttle for short distances is the equivalent to a scooter couch potato. Scooters need a good workout to be at their best.

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:29 am

It is gremlins, I tell you. That is the real answer. Get yourselves Guardian bells and holly water or whatever you believe in . THEY ARE OUT THERE

Scoots, you are right about my scooter: it has bee a couch potato for almost 2 years thanks to it's owner taking her time getting licensed. I started real riding just last month. Before it was weekends

Hellvis · Post by **Hellvis** » Thu May 12, 2011 12:31 am

I got the guardian bells on every 2 wheeled vehicle I own. But I still get stuck somehwere, sometimes. lol

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Thu May 12, 2011 3:54 am

Early in my military career at age 19 (1976) I would work part time for an Iranian named Johnny who had a VW Bug (air cooled) repair shop. He taught me more in one summer then night class class ever did from adjusting valves to assembling entire engines for customers strait from the machine shop. after a while he let me re-build my own Bug I picked up at the junk yard for $300. In a few months I had the fasted VW on base oversize from 1200CC to 1700CC, man could that car fly, understand that a 1966 VW bug only weighed about 1700, half the weight of today's Honda accord.

He taught me to check the valve clearance twice after adjustment each time rotating the engine by hand in the direction of rotation and stopping at TDC. He always told me "Always do good honest work, but never work cheap"LOL

bigdaddybud · Post by **bigdaddybud** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:27 pm

having the same problem with my blackjack...only 141 mi on her too...throttle went out after my first over 10 mi run on her...she is still in the shop they have had her for 14 days now...and they still cant figure it out...they said its something electrical..now mind you this is a brand new scooter..so i had the bike in my posession for 5 days the shop has now had it for 14..and they still arent sure whats wrong with it..i have not had a great experience with my blackjack...hopefully this gets taken care of in the next week so i can actually enjoy my scooter

Raiderfn31 · Post by **Raiderfn31** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:15 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
Stormswift wrote:Strange thing is instead of getting vapor lock after longer ride it actually performs like its old self - speed goes back to normal, etc. I am totally buffled
My scooter LOVES going for long hard rides. The harder and faster I ride it the happier it gets. It get's more responsive, runs smoother, and just all around feels peppier. Just like how happy a dog gets when it finally gets to go outside for a good run after being cooped up inside for too long. It just comes alive. I think the hard riding must simply clear things out in the engine. In my experience a scooter that only get ridden at 1/4 throttle for short distances is the equivalent to a scooter couch potato. Scooters need a good workout to be at their best.

I could not agree more. I have 250 miles on my St Tropez and have JUST begun to go full throttle for short burst. Its like the machine is asking for more. Plus its so cool to look in the rear view and see dots where cars used to be.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:21 am

Raiderfn31 wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:
Stormswift wrote:Strange thing is instead of getting vapor lock after longer ride it actually performs like its old self - speed goes back to normal, etc. I am totally buffled
My scooter LOVES going for long hard rides. The harder and faster I ride it the happier it gets. It get's more responsive, runs smoother, and just all around feels peppier. Just like how happy a dog gets when it finally gets to go outside for a good run after being cooped up inside for too long. It just comes alive. I think the hard riding must simply clear things out in the engine. In my experience a scooter that only get ridden at 1/4 throttle for short distances is the equivalent to a scooter couch potato. Scooters need a good workout to be at their best.
I could not agree more. I have 250 miles on my St Tropez and have JUST begun to go full throttle for short burst. Its like the machine is asking for more. Plus its so cool to look in the rear view and see dots where cars used to be.

I first noticed the performance improvement in particular after we did a 1200 mile ride from LA to Los Gatos and back, much of it WOT. My scooter was already broken in at that point but it was like it broke in again differently. The scooter just seemed to settle in to the higher RPM's and faster speed like it was its favorite comfy chair or something. Now, if I don't take it for a good run pretty frequently, it starts to get a little pissy with me

zilla86 · Post by **zilla86** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:15 am

Man I almost feel guilty not having a single problem with my new Blackjack.

I have over 500 miles on my scooter in 3 weeks of ownership and I think those of you that have done the long hard rides are on to something.

I do the same every chance I get and my Blackjack just seems to run smoother and faster after each ride.

I know we all have new 2009 Blackjack's but who know's how long our dealers had our scoots before we picked them up.

and more important what type of periodic maintenance was done while these scoots set at the dealer if any at all.

I went over my Buddy with a fine tooth comb after getting it home
and I could see my dealer did a great job setting it up. It has run like I expected with no issues at all.I checked all screws,nuts,wires,conectors etc. and they were all tight and in good shape.

It's been a while since I've owned a carbureted bike/scooter and in a way I'm glad to have it again

I hope you get your Blackjack sorted so you can enjoy this great little scooter.

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:54 am

ed85379:

Did your scooter issue resolve itself?

ed85379 · Post by **ed85379** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:59 am

michelle_7728 wrote:ed85379:

Did your scooter issue resolve itself?

The popping and stalling? Yeah. It hasn't done it since.
So it was either a bit of bad gas, or just vapor lock. I tend to pop the gas cap before riding it anywhere, just in case.

At about 320 miles now.

CWO4GUNNER · Post by **CWO4GUNNER** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:35 am

I think Im going to install a gas filter. You don't see them anymore but they used to be common place, clear plastic and visible so you could see what your fuel looked like. Would catch dirt, water and you cold see it but would keep it from collecting in your carb bowl.

CEZ2011 · Post by **CEZ2011** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:01 am

jmkjr72 wrote:well i would have the valves checkd and also check the ele conections around the coil
i ahve heard that there is a chance that a wire can work looose and might cause an issue like that too

I am just curious. What problem are you experiencing with your Buddy?

The problem you are experiencing may be some entirely unrelated to valve train and or carburetor issues. It could be something simple.

Valve adjustments and carb jetting are not difficult for someone who has experience working with engines but may not be the best job to attempt if you are a novice mechanic. Basic maintenance such as oil and filter changes are good place to start.

Raiderfn31 · Post by **Raiderfn31** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:09 am

CWO4GUNNER wrote:You don't have to necessarily be a "mechanic" to do the things I mentioned becasue they are considered the basic that can be learned by anyone. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a new car or mechanic and attended a basic community college course at night twice a week, auto repair 101 and auto body 101. Shop class was fun and taught me the basics and from there whenever I needed to learn some new procedure I just cracked a shop manual, did some research and took my time. I always had 2 used cars to trade off whenever one needed repairs. Since then 38 years to the present the only thing I take my vehicles to the mechanic for are tire changes and wheel balancing, so I got a big return on my investment.

I need to bite the bullet and do the same thing.

Dean F · Post by **Dean F** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:58 am

CWO4GUNNER wrote: think Im going to install a gas filter. You don't see them anymore but they used to be common place, clear plastic and visible so you could see what your fuel looked like. Would catch dirt, water and you cold see it but would keep it from collecting in your carb bowl.

You have one now but it is not clear, it is opaque. The stock one is about $17 and comes with new fuel lines. I change mine when I change my belt, plug, etc. (a full tune up).

Raiderfn31 · Post by **Raiderfn31** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:31 pm

CWO4GUNNER wrote:You don't have to necessarily be a "mechanic" to do the things I mentioned becasue they are considered the basic that can be learned by anyone. When I was 16 I couldn't afford a new car or mechanic and attended a basic community college course at night twice a week, auto repair 101 and auto body 101. Shop class was fun and taught me the basics and from there whenever I needed to learn some new procedure I just cracked a shop manual, did some research and took my time. I always had 2 used cars to trade off whenever one needed repairs. Since then 38 years to the present the only thing I take my vehicles to the mechanic for are tire changes and wheel balancing, so I got a big return on my investment.

nice to see that link you have isnt attached

Modern Buddy

Engine power loss during commute this morning

Engine power loss during commute this morning

Re: Engine power loss during commute this morning